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Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

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Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#21

Post by tsally »

cpher wrote: post #13
tsally wrote: post #3

You might be interested in this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=901782 . My response in that thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=901808 . A couple additional notes. If you're interested in creating things, a small CS program probably wont suit you. Those tend to be far more theoretical; what you want is a CS department with strong systems. You might also consider getting a degree in something else…

I highly recommend UIUC. I grew up there, worked there, and took a CS course there for fun. However, I wouldn't reject small schools outright. A strong liberal arts college will open your eyes to lots of opportunities and you'll definitely have a more personal relationship with the faculty. Even at schools like UIUC, you'll feel like a small fish in a big pond, and trying to make sense of it all may be overwhelming.

I only reject small schools when it comes to technical disciplines like CS. Size and funding make all the difference when it comes to the courses offered and undergraduate research opportunities. I actually prefer small, liberal arts schools for all other types of education. :)

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#22

Post by davi »

derefr wrote: post #17
jtaby wrote: post #16

Don't believe these people. A university education (especially in CS) will introduce you to A LOT of people and opportunities in your field, will expand your technical horizon, and will force you to learn things you wouldn't have otherwise learnt on your own. In my opinion, all the anti-university hate is from people who are too lazy to make the most of their university education on their own and expect their money a…

I keep hearing this, but I see no reason to justify paying exorbitant amounts of money for it. Why couldn't you get the same opportunities just by living on/near a university campus and actively meeting people ? Universities are not matchmaking services; if they were, they wouldn't hire professors, just staff TAs to teach undergraduate classes from material composed by corporate research labs (where all the actual Ph…

When you're in a good class with other smart people, you get to see their brains in action. You end up talking about interesting things with the classmates you like, and who like you. This is the foundation of a genuine intellectual network. It is difficult to obtain this seed network in any other way, except perhaps by email in a hopping open source project, or by getting into an interesting clique like Y Combinator.

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#23

Post by _cbsz »

derefr wrote: post #20
_cbsz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College students meet each other in ways that exclude non-students. For example, a significant portion of the top EECS undergraduates at Michigan spend a good amount of their social lives with a particular honor society. This society is, of course, entirely closed to non-students. Another group that doesn't leave campus all that much? Graduate students. You can't just waltz into University buildings and be all "sup d…

> People are at least pretending to do work, you won't be able to access the network, you won't have common classes to complain about together, etc. etc. We're somewhat suspicious of non-students, too. Those are social-status problems [and thus, I could answer snarkily, amenable to social engineering.] A University is a clique of people who pay a lot of money to attend a University. If the only technical advantage ev…

It may not be just the lectures that matter, but I definitely learned a lot and developed technical maturity as a result of my courses. Could I have learned them on my own if I had known exactly what to study? Maybe. Were there bad courses along with good ones? Yes. Are there bad students that still get degrees? Yep. Was it worthless? Absolutely not.

Example experience that could not have been had outside college, by definition: after taking the introductory computer science with perhaps more enthusiasm than was wise in my first semester, I TAed the course for my remaining 5 semesters. Obviously, my experience was not typical. On the other hand, if your experience is typical, then you certainly need to learn from courses rather than trying to do it all through self-study.

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#24

Post by tsally »

derefr wrote: post #20
_cbsz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College students meet each other in ways that exclude non-students. For example, a significant portion of the top EECS undergraduates at Michigan spend a good amount of their social lives with a particular honor society. This society is, of course, entirely closed to non-students. Another group that doesn't leave campus all that much? Graduate students. You can't just waltz into University buildings and be all "sup d…

> People are at least pretending to do work, you won't be able to access the network, you won't have common classes to complain about together, etc. etc. We're somewhat suspicious of non-students, too. Those are social-status problems [and thus, I could answer snarkily, amenable to social engineering.] A University is a clique of people who pay a lot of money to attend a University. If the only technical advantage ev…

Or instead of independently reinventing the wheel while living in communal apartments we could just choose to learn from people smarter than us who have already invented the wheel. I'd rather spend an hour of my time learning reductions from a really smart person than four hours independently stumbling through the problem. Indeed, the more complex the problems get, the less likely it is that the problems are even solvable independently. Seems like you are trivializing the process of learning. The time savings I get alone from having access to professors is worth the cost of tuition. Not to mention the research opportunities.

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#25

Post by derefr »

davi wrote: post #22
derefr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing this, but I see no reason to justify paying exorbitant amounts of money for it. Why couldn't you get the same opportunities just by living on/near a university campus and actively meeting people ? Universities are not matchmaking services; if they were, they wouldn't hire professors, just staff TAs to teach undergraduate classes from material composed by corporate research labs (where all the actual Ph…

When you're in a good class with other smart people, you get to see their brains in action. You end up talking about interesting things with the classmates you like, and who like you. This is the foundation of a genuine intellectual network. It is difficult to obtain this seed network in any other way, except perhaps by email in a hopping open source project, or by getting into an interesting clique like Y Combinator…

True—I think I just have a problem with the fact that the University is the one in control of it. If, instead, the social network was the core organization and free to join, and the students rented out/purchased the buildings and equipment, and hired the lecturers and administrative staff, I can imagine it costing a might bit less and having a much tighter feedback loop in instructor, student, and course quality. (Plus, matchmaking would be made an explicit goal, rather than assumed.)

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#26

Post by tomh »

bg4 wrote: post #6

Check out Purdue University and the University of Texas at Austin - both excellent schools. I'm biased to Purdue since I graduated BSCS from there but it's a great (read: rigorous) school with a very 'collegiate' atmosphere.

+1 to UT - while I did not get a BSCS there, I did take some courses from the program. They do start you off with Haskell, now a respectable equivalent of MIT's SICP course. You could even work for a while in Austin and become a TX state resident, after that your tuition rates go way down.

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#27

Post by derefr »

tsally wrote: post #24
derefr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are at least pretending to do work, you won't be able to access the network, you won't have common classes to complain about together, etc. etc. We're somewhat suspicious of non-students, too. Those are social-status problems [and thus, I could answer snarkily, amenable to social engineering.] A University is a clique of people who pay a lot of money to attend a University. If the only technical advantage ev…

Or instead of independently reinventing the wheel while living in communal apartments we could just choose to learn from people smarter than us who have already invented the wheel. I'd rather spend an hour of my time learning reductions from a really smart person than four hours independently stumbling through the problem. Indeed, the more complex the problems get, the less likely it is that the problems are even sol…

I do agree with you; I was just taking the idea that "the value of attending university is in the connections you make" as assumed by the root of this thread, since I inevitably see that comment be used as a summary of these discussions. That idea implies that, if you don't care for the connections, self-teaching or learning in industry is somehow "good enough." And that thought implies that you could get the same connections, and therefore the same value, by just shacking everyone who would be attending the university together and letting them simmer in their own intellect.

While it's probably true in the marginal case—the 10x increase in tuition to go to an Ivy League school certainly doesn't cause a 10x increase in education, but it may well cause a 10x increase in connectivity—it's false in the general case. To simplify that: some university is good, but more university is not necessarily better. And you could probably get all the learning you wanted from just having your "apartment building" hire lecturers, and establish a good working relationship with professional research institutions (supposing most of the Ph.Ds, displaced, would end up working at Bell-Labs-like places.)

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#28

Post by endtime »

davidalln wrote: post #11
endtime wrote: post #4

>Are there still places out there that offer a diverse undergraduate Computer Science program that goes beyond teaching Java and C++ and focuses on the application of these technologies to create things? That's not computer science, that's software engineering. If that's what you're interested in, you could look at RIT. That said, I'm guessing you're in high school, which means you may well not really know what you w…

You are right, I did not make myself clear. I was trying to keep my description as general as possible as to not make it entirely self centered. By "diverse" I mean going beyond software engineering and touching on graphics, AI, simulation, AR/VR, hardware architecture, and so on. My main worry is ending up in cookie cutter classes for four years. Then again, my idea of what college is truly like may be skewed due to…

As elblanco said, any program worth its salt will have most of those as requirements or electives, even tiny ones like Georgetown. You should be able to check the school's CS department's website and see what their curriculum looks like (example: http://cs.stanford.edu/degrees/undergrad/ProgramSheets.shtml). My email is my profile - if you want me to take a look at any specific school I'd be happy to.

More generally, I think the anti-education sentiment you mentioned is unfounded. I'm colored by my experiences, of course, but I don't think I'd be half the engineer I am today without the education I've had, and I'm not a stupid guy.

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#29

Post by psyklic »

The key at a university is that it will provide you resources to do whatever you want to do ... you just need to ask and show passion, because 99% of the students won't. Most people think that it is a very formal structure, but they will often bend rules to accommodate you if you are genuinely interested in learning. It's just up to you to take the initiative.

Want a research position over the summer? Ask professors and show them your interest -- most freshmen will assume they can't, won't get to know professors, and won't show passion. This is how I got a paid position as a freshman.

Want to do applied stuff? Join a club such as DARPA Grand Challenge, RoboCup, etc. Or, start a club. Or, you will likely have free time to work on personal projects (moreso than at a full time job at least). I started a RoboCup group my freshman year, met a lot of like-minded people, met a lot of professors. What a great thing to do to meet people and learn what the university has to offer.

Want to take an interesting upper-level class but don't meet the formal prereqs? Just ask, they'll probably let you in.

Also, I must say -- it is completely inaccurate that universities just "teach Java and C++". Almost everywhere, this is likely only a first, test-outable introductory course. The topics you said you were interested in should be available at any decent CS program as electives.

Re: Ask HN: So What Universities Are Good?

#30

Post by ecuzzillo »

Carnegie Mellon University is quite good at what you want, especially if you maximize the courses you take and the research you do in that direction, but it's still good for that even if you don't. There are a lot of really good hardcore coding classes, and also a lot of really good applications classes.

My impression is that most of the top-ranked CS programs also do this, although at some of them it's more optional than others (i.e. you can get a CS degree without necessarily having written very much code). CMU is arguably the biggest in terms of number of pure CS faculty, and one of the only ones with a CS "School" with subdepartments (including CS (aka "misc"), machine learning, robotics, language technologies, software engineering, and some others I forget).

Basically everywhere I've heard of that's an actual university does let undergrads touch research. But, if you're interested in jumping straight to industry, research may or may not be what you're after; you might be better off with internships each summer and then your own side projects.

Also, the Java/C++ thing is more about employers complaining that they see people coming out of random universities with CS degrees but no ability to code. There are probably a fair number of universities that will let you graduate with only a JavaSchool coding level, but most places also allow you to get a vastly deeper education if you don't dodge all the good coding courses.

TL;DR: Yeah, go to a good CS program, it'll be worth it, and you'll be a lot better at life, programming, and thinking afterward.

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