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Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

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Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#21
I've tried a few times but given up each time. I learned to touch type QWERTY at age 13 and use it at well over 100wpm. I'm in my early 30s and I think I'm stuck with it now.

Even after living in Germany for ~10 years, I still buy and import US keyboards and laptops so that the enter key (and backslash) are in the right place. (It's not just mapping - the physical buttons are laid out differently.)

I read about these people who switched and it seems totally impossible to me. Months of slow typing?! Ain't nobody got time for that.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#22
MY DVORAK JOURNEY

2009

- I type in QWERTY.

- I can hunt-and-pick at 60 WPM.

2010

- I discover Dvorak.

- I start to despise QWERTY.

2011

- I buy a Kinesis Advantage (https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-for-pc-mac/).

- I learn to touch type.

- I learn Dvorak.

- I can touch type at 60 WPM (after 1 month).

2012

- I convert a fried to Dvorak.

2017

- I still type in Dvorak.

- I can type up to 100 WPM.

- I find regular (non-ergonomic) keyboards uncomfortable.

- I struggle to type in QWERTY (certainly can't touch type).

- I use QWERTY on my phone.

- I never suffer wrist pain or fatigue.

- I don't despise QWERTY anymore.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#23
I've been on Dvorak for ~ 3 years now. I kept a small log of typing tests for QWERTY and then for my dvorak adventure. Once performing the complete switch (which took about a month) there was no difference in typing errors or wpm ( I do about ~60). I've actually been able to switch inbetween QWERTY and Dvorak with relative ease, given about 5-10 mins to reacquaint myself with qwerty I get right back up to my old test scores. The main difference is qualitative for me, they feel very different while typing. QWERTY feels bunched up and tight, while Dvorak makes my hands feel more spread out.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#24
Once people know you don't type QWERTY they won't shut up about it. Every time there is an HN post about colemak or dvorak you'll get the same stream of jokes and references to 20 year old reason articles. Some people seem to think the only reason to switch is that you are secretly a keyboard evangelical, and treat you as such. It's pretty annoying.

/rant

My only metric for Dvorak's effectiveness is that my wrists used to hurt when I argued with people on IRC. I switched to Dvorak and my wrists got better, then I stopped arguing with people on IRC and my life got better. ymmv

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#25
post #13

For the context, I have been using the Dvorak layout since February 2009, so nearly 8 years. My keyboard is the TypeMatrix 2030[0]. The first 4 to 6 months where really hard, having the feeling to go back 10 years or more in the past with respect to typing speed. But after that, I improved a lot my typing speed and I am now to a point where I type as fast as I can formulate the sentences in my head. What is impressiv…

Is it easy to use with MacOS or shortcuts are messed up?

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#26
I switched to dvorak about ten years ago when I incorrectly hypothesized that it might help resolve my wrist pain. [1] It definitely took about a month to get fluid. Once I realized that the new keyboard layout wasn't really helping my problem, I figured I might as well stick with it, since it definitely does involve less wrist movement and such. (I don't know if it will help with movement stress but it seems unlikely to hurt. And that's all I've got to go off of, since there isn't really any quality science that I know of in this area.)

But the difficulty of switching all at once is quite significant. I hypothesize that if you used a keyboard editor to switch your keys one at a time, rather than switching the entire layout at once, that you might be able to learn Dvorak while still largely being able to use your keyboard, thus reducing the pain. Given my own subsequent experiments with moving keys around and how fast I can learn single key moves, I hypothesize that it may even be net faster to use this technique than to switch all at once, because I suspect you might be able to do as much as two or three key switches an hour. Possibly even more if you're seriously just sitting there and typing an essay or some documentation or something. What I don't know is what this will do to your qwerty skills. (Though I doubt it will wreck them, but I don't know.)

I hypothesize that learning by switching one key at a time, rather than trying to swallow the entire layout at once, you can learn faster because you get much more rapid feedback when you hit wrong keys than you will from sitting there with a printed chart of keys and pecking them out one by one until you memorize them.

But since I already know a good-enough keyboard layout [2], I have little motivation to try the experiment myself. I'd be interested in hearing about how it goes if someone else tries it.

I further hypothesize that the best first thing to do would be to switch the vowels in under the left hand home row first. So the first move would be to map the O key to the S keyboard key, and thus move the S to the O keyboard key. It won't end up there, of course, but unfortunately since we can only get to the layout by swaps we pass through some intermediate steps that have keys in places they are never mapped. I still think this could go faster than switching cold turkey, though. After that I'd probably go with the right-hand home row, and then expand out from there roughly in frequency order. You may also want to switch both of the [ and ] keys in one shot.

One benefit of the alternate keyboard layouts is that you don't have to "learn" to touch type on a sane keyboard layout. The layout itself rewards you for staying on the home row and you automatically touch type without having to "learn" it. Typing classes would be essentially unnecessary if we used Dvorak on the keycaps instead. The very fact that touch typing is something you must deliberately learn with QWERTY, and apply discipline to maintain in the face of your finger's attempts to do otherwise, in some sense captures in one fell swoop all the issues with using that layout.

[1]: It turns out the correct solution for me for that was to take the keyboard off the desk; I now type with it on my lap, which has solved the problem ever since, possibly combined with an ergonomic-style split keyboard. (Nothing fancy, just the Microsoft split keyboard, not one that is literally in two pieces or anything.)

[2]: By most measurements, you can do better than Dvorak with Colemak or something. However, there's a plateau effect as you get closer to optimal. Having picked Dvorak so long ago, it's not worth to switch to something slightly more optimal. From the perspective of QWERTY, all the better keyboards are better by roughly the same amount. Plus we don't really know what measures to optimize anyhow; we're only making somewhat-informed guesses.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#27

Once people know you don't type QWERTY they won't shut up about it. Every time there is an HN post about colemak or dvorak you'll get the same stream of jokes and references to 20 year old reason articles. Some people seem to think the only reason to switch is that you are secretly a keyboard evangelical, and treat you as such. It's pretty annoying. /rant My only metric for Dvorak's effectiveness is that my wrists us…

Hey, wait, aren't you that guy that does the funny nerd keyboard thing? Type me a sentence. Dance monkey, dance!

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#28
post #18
post #14

Moved to France 10 years ago and had to decide between buying a QWERTY keyboard or laptop online and getting it delivered, or just buying a local AZERTY keyboard. Went local, had a couple of weeks of re-learning how to type, and then things were fine. From time to time I encounter a QWERTY keyboard (some in the French office here prefer it as they trained on QWERTY while in university or working internationally) but…

I'm French, and AZERTY sometime drives me crazy. Braces and parenthesis aren't logically placed, characters used in coding languages aren't easily accessible in general . And I've generally concluded that I should install games in English and switch my keyboard layout to QWERTY when/if I play. Plus, mods usually are in English, and I hate when there's a word in French and the next is in English.

I am also french and I only use QWERTY. AZERTY don't make a lot of sense. I don't say that QWERTY is perfect, but at least, you find ",", ".", "/", {}, () and [] couples at a place that makes sense without having to AltGr and stuff. Even @ and numbers are hardly accessible.

Re: Ask HN: What is your experience switching away from QWERTY keyboard?

#29
I switched to Colemak for a couple of years. The trick for me was using a typing tutor relentlessly over a weekend, enough that I could do around 40-50 wpm. Then I went cold turkey and never used QWERTY.

Colemak is a little bit friendlier than Dvorak because it leaves a bunch of keys intact, which is nice for preserving common shortcuts like CTRL-C, CTRL-V, etc. It also doesn't touch punctuation, which always seemed more disruptive than it needed to be in Dvorak.

In the end I switched back to QWERTY because I started working in a paired programming environment, and switching between the two whenever we would switch drivers became really annoying.

My main problem is that I was never really able to be proficient at Colemak and QWERTY at the same time. It was shocking how fast I lost my QWERTY muscle memory. When I switched back, it came back fast, but it was difficult for me to use someone else's QWERTY keyboard efficiently while I was using Colemak.

The other issue I've always had is that programs are designed to have a mix of positional shortcuts and mnemonic shortcuts. When you switch keyboard layouts, it's hard to keep both, even with customization.

For example, vim uses hjkl for navigation due to their position, not mnemonic. So you want to preserve those. But in Colemak that row is "hnei", so now you need to change "n" and "i", but those are both mnemonic (next and insert), so what do you change them to now?

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