Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 191 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#21

Post by uph »

aq3cn wrote: post #4

You know if that happen then flip phone users will have hard time because network will promote only high end selective phones. SIM card gives you freedom of putting it in $25 or $640 phone and it works just fine. People with security, budget and privacy concern go for flip phones. Just like net neutrality, phone neutrality is a good thing. One should never be forced to purchase smart phone if he does not want it. A d…

> People with security, budget and privacy concern go for flip phones.

No. That ensures you can't send encrypted messages or do encrypted calls.

Also see one of the reasons Signal moved to sending encrypted messages as data and stopped supporting encrypted messages sent as sms.

> SMS and MMS are a security disaster. They leak all possible metadata 100% of the time to thousands of cellular carriers worldwide. It's common to think of SMS/MMS as being "offline" or "peer to peer," but the truth is that SMS/MMS messages are still processed by servers--the servers are just controlled by the telcos. We don't want the state-run telcos in Saudi, Iran, Bahrain, Belarus, China, Egypt, Cuba, USA, etc... to have direct access to the metadata of TextSecure users in those countries or anywhere else.

https://whispersystems.org/blog/goodbye-encrypted-sms/

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#22

Post by pmontra »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #13

> Feels like this is probably the result of telco networks wanting as much friction as possible to change providers, but is there something more to it? In 3rd world countries, people regularly swithch their SIMs as they travel across borders because no one has cross-country access. Taking a SIM out only uses up a minute of your time, and standizing on a hardwardware dongle like that is great because if company A goes…

That's also a 1st world thing. If you travel often between two European country it might be cheaper to have two SIMs, one for your country and one for the other one, especially if you pay as you go. Cross border roaming fees are getting cheaper because the European Commission wants so (luckily) but telcos are doing their best to regain those money by any other means.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#23

Post by uola »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

Yeah, while I can appreciate the question (curiosity is a good things) I don't think anyone with experience of software should be surprised. When you consider things like passwords, credit cards, wifi login and e-mail addresses the question is really why aren't more things like sim cards. (which is kind of what Apple is trying to do these days?)

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#24

Post by kalleboo »

mianos wrote: post #10

For some perspective, check electronupdate's recent 'decapping': http://electronupdate.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/decap-of-cell-... It is not just a little block of secure RAM labelled a 'smartcard'. It contains as much CPU as a low end phone. Amazing.

And it runs Java!

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#25

Post by vidarh »

On the contrary, it is the result of a concerted effort to reduce friction.

With SIM cards, users can switch to a new phone by just moving the SIM, or switch to a new provider while keeping their phone (assuming its unlocked) by just replacing the SIM.

Prior to SIM cards phones where frequently programmed to be tied to a specific provider.

A pure software solution could work, but requires the network operators to be able to trust the phone manufacturers to secure it well enough to not let end users change things in ways they're not supposed to (e.g. consider a hacker harvesting authentication details from phones). The SIM card is the simple solution.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#26

Post by kalleboo »

threeseed wrote: post #8

If you have an iPad there is already a software solution: http://www.apple.com/ipad/apple-sim/ It contains what is known as a remote provisioning SIM: https://www.gsmaintelligence.com/research/?file=81d866ecda8b... So clearly the only thing stopping the industry is the telcos who would very much like to make it as difficult as humanely possible for you to switch carriers. Especially in the US where there is a lot of…

SIM cards actually make it far easier to switch carriers. Compare the competition in the European market where SIM portability has been there from day 1 to the situation with CDMA carriers in the US and their refusal to reprogram ESNs.

A software solution would quickly devolve into the US CDMA system where you have to get a whole new phone to change providers.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#27

Post by pmontra »

My 5 yo phone eventually died at the beginning of October. I put the SIM in my tablet and I kept going until I received the new one two days later. A pure software solution would have worked as well, but the SIM is an authentication token. 2FA are all the rage nowadays and if we went pure software I bet we'll have to use a separate token anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#28

Post by bonzini »

uola wrote: post #23
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

Yeah, while I can appreciate the question (curiosity is a good things) I don't think anyone with experience of software should be surprised. When you consider things like passwords, credit cards, wifi login and e-mail addresses the question is really why aren't more things like sim cards. (which is kind of what Apple is trying to do these days?)

The Yubikey Neo and similar gadgets are pretty much the same thing as USB smart cards. The software could be improved but in the end it is a pretty convenient way to achieve two factor authentication.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#29

Post by mherrmann »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

Doesn't every login form on the web also protect the respective operator from the subscriber? Why can't a "software SIM" simply be a username and a password?

My explanation is that it's difficult to change something that literally the entire world uses.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#30

Post by aembleton »

kalleboo wrote: post #24
mianos wrote: post #10

For some perspective, check electronupdate's recent 'decapping': http://electronupdate.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/decap-of-cell-... It is not just a little block of secure RAM labelled a 'smartcard'. It contains as much CPU as a low end phone. Amazing.

And it runs Java!

A very much cut down version of Java https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card
Post reply on HN