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Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

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Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#21

Post by gjolund »

kup0 wrote: post #18

It's annoyingly bad at this point. You know it's gotten bad whenever new frameworks are coming out where being "minimal" is a feature. Page loads are very large on some sites now, where they don't have to be. Though, advertising can be blamed for a lot of that. There's just a lot of extra cruft out there now, without much added to the user experience, in fact, it often detracts from it. What happened to using only wh…

Websites are becoming more complex. Deal with it.

I'm sure people said the same thing about the gutenburg press vs locking a bunch of monks in a room for 20 years.

That being said, if you don't understand the tech, or the tooling that implements it, don't use it. Keep doing things the hard way, I really don't care.

In a few years we will be writing config files for machine learning algorithms to stitch together a ui based on requirements doc, or an api specification. You can already see this within AWS API gateway and lambda functions, and a lot of the R&D being done around procedurally generated ui's.

The developers that fail to adapt will be left building sites using legacy tooling for shit clients who don't know better. Or move into management where they can impose their archaic views on their subordinates who do know better.

Either way, no one is forcing you to write code you don't understand, that is 100% your fault.

I look forward to the day that I can automate away the need for sub par developers polluting codebases with their versions of "simplicity". I am currently re-writing a 100k line js app for a fortune 500 company, the initial contractors were trying to keep things "simple" by using 10 year old tech. They all got fired 2 days after my proof of concept demo.

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#22

Post by gjolund »

cnp wrote: post #10

The answer is simple: Web Applications are becoming Applications in the traditional sense of the word -- and Applications have always been complex. Now we're just moving that complexity on to the web. But that said, the Webpack + React + Flux model is the simplest kind of programming I've done in a very long while.

Webpack + React + Flux solves so many problems so elegantly.

They have done a phenomenal job of abstracting away complexity behind stable apis.

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#23

Post by _w3e8 »

ufmace wrote: post #17

I get where you're coming from - when the initial project for the framework you're working with has so much stuff that you don't understand or need yet, it feels like a huge burden to do the simplest thing in it. You might want to give Ruby Sinatra a whirl. I just helped a friend build a starter site in it. The Hello World for it is 1 file with 4 lines of Ruby, no config files at all. Save that 1 file, run it, and yo…

"It doesn't force any particular way of doing things onto you."

Might as well be

"Your app is spaghetti 1 year after you leave the company."

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#24

Post by gjolund »

Oras wrote: post #15

Complicated frameworks are pain in the ass, I fully understand but there is a value in following some "market standard" frameworks as they make the team speaks the same language and will make it easier to bring developers in at any time without long learning curve.

Pick frameworks that solve problems you actually have and understand.

Your gripe isn't about the tooling, but developers ability to learn.

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#26

Post by ghuntley »

lewisl9029 wrote: post #20
ghuntley wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The web community pioneered UI development paradigms involving > functional programming techniques and immutable data Ugh, No. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/papers-we-love/papers-we-l... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agu6jipKfYw

I'm honestly not aware of any UI development platform that makes heavy use of functional techniques and immutable data outside of the web. Sure, papers have been written about the idea, but where else has it been used in practice ? RE: the video. I'm almost certain you know this, but Elm is a part of the web community.

Notable examples on the desktop: GitHub for Mac (ReactiveCocca) and GitHub for Windows (ReactiveUI)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XNATGjqM6U and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPyKHxy7X0w and http://web.archive.org/web/20120714082000/http://www.reactiv...

(True Elm is part of the web-community, just saying React was not the first mover but I agree it will certainly be most likely the one that makes FRP cross the chasm)

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#27

Post by Gigablah »

gjolund wrote: post #25

I feel like most of the conversations around this topic boil down to: "I don't want to have to learn new stuff." GTFO of this industry then.

Yep, especially when they put no effort into understanding the design decisions behind different frameworks and glibly dismiss new ones as "hype" and "jerking off".

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#28

Post by gjolund »

Gigablah wrote: post #27
gjolund wrote: post #25

I feel like most of the conversations around this topic boil down to: "I don't want to have to learn new stuff." GTFO of this industry then.

Yep, especially when they put no effort into understanding the design decisions behind different frameworks and glibly dismiss new ones as "hype" and "jerking off".

"Building blogs with wordpress is easy, so building facebook should be easy too."

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#29

Post by 811639047892938 »

I agree. I would like to see some (theoretical) long-term study on the productivity gains/losses from using big frameworks, including details such as how it affects a company when they have to hire someone 2 years later who either knows a given framework, or must spend an amount of time to learn it.

Re: Ask HN: Why web frameworks are becoming so complex?

#30

Post by ufmace »

_w3e8 wrote: post #23
ufmace wrote: post #17

I get where you're coming from - when the initial project for the framework you're working with has so much stuff that you don't understand or need yet, it feels like a huge burden to do the simplest thing in it. You might want to give Ruby Sinatra a whirl. I just helped a friend build a starter site in it. The Hello World for it is 1 file with 4 lines of Ruby, no config files at all. Save that 1 file, run it, and yo…

"It doesn't force any particular way of doing things onto you." Might as well be "Your app is spaghetti 1 year after you leave the company."

There's some truth to that. I think it's all about knowing the right tools for the job. If you spend several dev-years on a Sinatra app, then you probably will have a unmaintainable mess unless you have some good architects enforcing a sensible structure on it.

Sticking with Ruby for examples, if you want to put up a quickie site with 4 routes and no DB, then it seems kinda silly to pull in Rails and deal with all of the complexity and expectations. Throw up a Sinatra site and be done with it.

On the other hand, if you're getting more demand for it and now you want more logic and analytics and a DB after all and some user accounts etc, then you should know when it's time to move over to Rails.

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