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Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#191

Post by cjaybo »

l33tman wrote: post #146
s_ting765 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you that the coders who are "smitten" by LLMs are just inexperienced. I personally find that LLMs get subtle improvements in capability over time and it's usually worthwhile to check in on the progress from time to time. Even if it's just for fun.

I can see why you would chime in to say that in your experience you don't get any value out of it, but to chime in to say that the millions of people who do are "inexperienced" is pretty offensive. In the hands of skilled developers these tools are a complete gamechanger.

Are these “millions of people” in the room with us now?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#192

Post by aristofun »

As google on steroids - yes. Next level helpful and offloads a lot of dumb and repetitive work from you.

As a developer buddy - no. LLMs don't actually think and don't actually learn like people do. That part of the overinflated expectations is gonna hit hard some companies one day.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#193

Post by ddingus »

sph wrote: post #118
Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find LLMs 100x more productive for greenfield work. If I want to create a React app with X amount of pages, some Redux stores, Auth, etc. then it can smash that out in minutes. I can say "now add X" and it'll do it. Generally with good results. But when it comes to maintaining existing systems, or adding more complicated features, or needing to know business domain details, a LLM is usually not that great for me. T…

> I find LLMs 100x more productive for greenfield work. Greenfield != boilerplate and basic CRUD app. I'm a consultant writing greenfield apps solo, and 90% of my time is spent away from my editor thinking, planning, designing, meeting with stakeholders. I see no benefit in using a low-IQ autocomplete tool to automate a small part of the remaining 10% of the job, the easiest and most enjoyable part in fact. Personall…

Your disclaimer adds value. Well done and appreciated!

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#194

Post by johnecheck »

max_on_hn wrote: post #173
gyomu wrote: post #13

There are two kinds of engineers. Those who can’t stop raving about how much of a superpower LLMs are for coding, how it’s made them 100x more productive, and is unlocking things they could’ve never done before. And those who, like you, find it to be an extremely finicky process that requires extreme amount of coddling to get average results at best. The only thing I don’t understand is why people from the former gro…

(disclaimer: I have a vested interest in the space as the purveyor of an AI software development agent) The result you described is coming soon. CheepCode[0] agents already produce working code in a satisfying percentage of cases, and I am at most 3 months away from it producing end-to-end apps and complex changes that are at least human-quality. It would take way less if I got funded to work on it full time. Given t…

"At most 3 months away"

This is a strong claim. I'm not aware of any AI model or system that can consistently and correctly make complex changes in existing codebases. What makes you so confident that you can achieve this, alone, in the next 3 months?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#195

Post by insane_dreamer »

Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #41
gyomu wrote: post #13

There are two kinds of engineers. Those who can’t stop raving about how much of a superpower LLMs are for coding, how it’s made them 100x more productive, and is unlocking things they could’ve never done before. And those who, like you, find it to be an extremely finicky process that requires extreme amount of coddling to get average results at best. The only thing I don’t understand is why people from the former gro…

I find LLMs 100x more productive for greenfield work. If I want to create a React app with X amount of pages, some Redux stores, Auth, etc. then it can smash that out in minutes. I can say "now add X" and it'll do it. Generally with good results. But when it comes to maintaining existing systems, or adding more complicated features, or needing to know business domain details, a LLM is usually not that great for me. T…

> create a React app with X amount of pages, some Redux stores, Auth, etc.

Unless you're a contractor making basic websites for small businesses, how many of these do you need to make? This really a small fraction of the job of most developers, except for entry-level devs.

> when it comes to maintaining existing systems, or adding more complicated features, or needing to know business domain details,

This is what experienced developers will spend 90% of their time doing.

So yes, LLMs can replace entry-level devs, but not the more experienced ones.

This begs the question: if companies stop hiring entry-level devs because LLMs can do their job, how will new devs get experience?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#196

Post by tkiolp4 »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #195
Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find LLMs 100x more productive for greenfield work. If I want to create a React app with X amount of pages, some Redux stores, Auth, etc. then it can smash that out in minutes. I can say "now add X" and it'll do it. Generally with good results. But when it comes to maintaining existing systems, or adding more complicated features, or needing to know business domain details, a LLM is usually not that great for me. T…

> create a React app with X amount of pages, some Redux stores, Auth, etc. Unless you're a contractor making basic websites for small businesses, how many of these do you need to make? This really a small fraction of the job of most developers, except for entry-level devs. > when it comes to maintaining existing systems, or adding more complicated features, or needing to know business domain details, This is what exp…

Your conclusion is wrong I think. LLMs cannot magically replace entry levels devs. Who’s gonna ask the LLM to create the basic website? The product owner? The accountant? The sales guy? They wouldn’t know how to be precise enough to state what they actually need. An entry level engineer would make use of the LLM to produce the website and push it to production. Hell, only engineers know that the devil is in the details. Quick example: let’s say a Contact Us page needs to be built. There are tons of details that need to be accounted for and the LLM may skip them if it is not told about them: where does the data of the form go to? A backend endpoint? What about captcha? What about analytics? What about validation of specific fields? What about the friendly URL? And disabling the button after sending to prevent duplicate requests?

An LLM is very capable of implementing all of that… if only someone who knows all of that stuff tell them first.

And most importantly: LLMs don’t challenge the task given. Engineers do. Many times, problems are solved without code.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#197

Post by platevoltage »

Th best value I get out of AI is just having "someone" to bounce ideas off of, or to get quick answers from. I find that it's a HUGE help if I need to write code/understand code in a language that I don't work with every day. I might get it to write me a function that takes X as input and outputs Y. I might get it to set up boilerplate. I have talked to people that have said "I don't even write code anymore". That's definitely not me. Maybe it's a skill issue, but yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat too.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#198

Post by _boffin_ »

I just had an llm build the my side business’s website and full client portal. About 15k loc.

It’s amazing. Better design in terms of UI / UX than I could have fathomed and so much more.

There’s a lot of duplicated code that I’ll clean up, but the site functions and will be launched for clients to start using soon.

For my day job, it’s also helping me build out the software at a faster pace than before and is an amazing rubber duck.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#200

Post by ragdollk »

Honestly I think what this boils down to is if you are concerned with good code or concerned with working code. They make working code. And if there is a bug or implementation that fails (which there usually is with the first shot) when asked, they work to resolve that. LLMs are very results driven, and they will do most anything to try and get the results requested. Even cheat. So, for coders that are concerned with quality code... of course you'll be unimpressed. For project managers who are concerned with a working piece of software, of course you will be impressed by that. You didn't have to ask a developer to create it. As far as impact on our culture goes... much like other disruptions in the past, they will win this war. They will win because they lower the barrier to entry to get working software. You ask what the value is - it's that.
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