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Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

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Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#191
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for MVC/MVVM and Co specifically on mobile. These things were created to teach beginners a few important concepts, mainly separation of concerns. MVC/MVVM work well on toy sample projects with 2-3 pages but can ruin a larger project. Somehow wherever I'm seeing MVVM applied there's also messy, buggy, impenetrable code around it. I don't think it's a coincidence.

MVVM: yes, in most cases. There are some cases where it's a godsend, but most of the uses I have seen are ... not entirely sane. But MVC? That's pretty minimal in terms of what you're going to do anyway if you have functionality (model) and will be interacting with it (view). Controllers are often misunderstood, and in the case of Apple massively misapplied (Massive View Controllers).

Agreed on that controllers are often misunderstood. I saw them to become both: a view and a model at the same time. :(

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#192

Some scattered thoughts: Just today, I built a complex order editing form in vanilla Javascript with AJAX. It's over 900 lines of Javascript where half of the code is state management boilerplate, painstakingly ensuring the correct effects are run when the user changes an order line's quantity or picks another product. We currently can't use libraries with our stack, so it was necessary to write it like this, but it…

“We currently can't use libraries with our stack” Interesting. Could you share the reason?

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#193
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but why aren't companies then firing all frontend developers and instead let backend developers build logic frontends with vanilla HTML/JS/CSS?

Because you can't do that with vanilla HTML/JS/CS.

Of course you can, but it would be hell when it comes to state management.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#194
Several reasons:

1. Lack of skills. Front-end has evolved from web design. If people like to criticize software engineering as “not real engineering” then front-end is the farthest thing from engineering that exists in software engineering. One can see this in the programming languages, the code reuse (libraries, packages, etc), the tools and the attitude.

2. Too much ambition. At the same time I don’t think I’ve ever seen a community so driven by reaching their goals at any cost. Once apps kneecapped web sites the community had a major identity crisis which they solved not by doubling but by tripling down on HTML, CSS, JS and the like. Standards, common sense, performance, usability, privacy be damned. Because of point 1, the solutions they built were also just good enough to not completely fall apart. This is also why everything’s being rewritten in the web.

2. Too much money. Unfortunately companies like Google and Facebook made an immense amount of money ruining privacy for everyone and they could do this faster, better and out of sight with web apps. They poured money into web technologies like their lives depended on it (because they did) and in the end managed to squeeze a round peg into a square hole: the fundamentally mediocre web managed to displace more worthy technologies and entrenched itself.

Every few years some poor soul realises the reality of their professional existence and writes a blog post or comment asking something along the lines of “Why is front-end so terrible?”. But there’s too much money in the status quo, so they either get gaslighted, or subtly dismissed and the cycle repeats anew.

And that reality is that you can polish a turd. With enough manpower, motivation and money you can really make it shine. But underneath, it still stinks and people will figure it out. :-)

Note: I got out of front-end in the 00s and then out of back-end a year later. Since then I’ve watched this never-ending train-wreck with amusement and amazement, but also sadness when realising how many real apps are replaced by soulless Electron shells.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#195
I think it is artificially inflated. The web took off to such a degree that that is where all the high paying jobs were. So people came over from other places and brought their complexity with them and imposed it on web development. The fact that you now have to have a build system to create a website is like something taken straight from application development.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#196

Unpopular biased opinion. Frontend development is mostly done by people who are into visual things and less into logic. Unlike backend engineering, where people working are primarily choosing technology based on logic/merit and less by visual appearance. This leads to the adaptation of large number of garbage frameworks in frontend primarily because their landing pages look visually appealing. After some time fronten…

This reads like a critique written by someone who has never actually worked on frontend. The choice of framework has no bearing on how visually appealing the site looks. It would be silly to posit that a company would, for example, choose to build their site on React primarily because there are a lot of visually appealing websites out there that happen to be built with React.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#197
post #62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair most front-end projects have abandoned redux now. It was for sure boilerplate hell.

Tell that to European corporations. Angular + NgRx/NGXS is the de-facto gold standard there.

I think Observables are much simpler to grok than some hundreds-line multi-file combined reducer/actions amalgamation.

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#198
post #173

Early react team member here. The popular react/webpack/npm stack is probably what the OP is talking about. It was popularized because the Instagram web team used webpack and npm in 2013 so we recommended it alongside react in the early days. I was TLM of the team when we made these decisions. There are three main points I want to add to the conversation. 1. UIs actually have a lot of complexity. The number of states…

What is ZIRP?

zero interest rate policy, which basically means central banks do stuff to keep interbank interest rates very low (close to zero in the US, and it was even negative in the EU)

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/ke...

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#199
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is ZIRP?

Zero interest rate policies :) Sometimes companies have too much money and they overhire.

I think you typo'd

Zero interest rate policies

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/031815/what-...

Re: Ask HN: Why did Frontend development explode in complexity?

#200

Early react team member here. The popular react/webpack/npm stack is probably what the OP is talking about. It was popularized because the Instagram web team used webpack and npm in 2013 so we recommended it alongside react in the early days. I was TLM of the team when we made these decisions. There are three main points I want to add to the conversation. 1. UIs actually have a lot of complexity. The number of states…

Don't forget about resume driven development, though that ties in with marketing.
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