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Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

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Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#191

Post by m463 »

mradek wrote: post #161
w10-1 wrote: post #16

It's hard to overstate how bloated Apple was internally. Marketing had products for every conceivable niche. Engineering was all posturing: great hand-waving plans papered over nasty middle-management infighting. Hundreds of engineers in new glass-walled offices, producing plans. I wrote test code against a component that had been delivered months earlier only to find that it was just a stub. Even the debugger had bu…

I wish companies would be run in a way that removes insane leveling completely. In my current company there are 7 or 8 levels (depending how you look at it) for ICs. Why? IME it has led to so much “talk” and bloat, and useless meetings led by people trying to prove something who go on and on about things that make no sense. No execution, only flattery and BS. IMO, the only levels you need should be Software Engineer,…

I remember finding out some companies had SO many VPs. how can you have that many VPs? isn't it like making everyone a senior engineer?

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#192

Post by shanusmagnus »

aljfds3 wrote: post #177
mradek wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish companies would be run in a way that removes insane leveling completely. In my current company there are 7 or 8 levels (depending how you look at it) for ICs. Why? IME it has led to so much “talk” and bloat, and useless meetings led by people trying to prove something who go on and on about things that make no sense. No execution, only flattery and BS. IMO, the only levels you need should be Software Engineer,…

At Palantir, there are no levels at all, everyone is just a simple software engineer. It's their relevant experience that gives an engineer leverage on a project.

I worked at a place like that before. A lot of people were grumpy that they were not progressing. Some of them were probably right; some were probably wrong. But it was clear to me that having a concrete thing to aim for (a new title) mattered. A lot.

I take it that wasn't the case at Palantir. Since I'm convinced that all humans are status-seeking, I'm curious how Palantir satisfied that urge, if not w/ title differentiation.

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#193

Post by [deleted] »

MaintenanceMode wrote: post #91

I was there in 1999 as OS X was being developed, and the beta was just about to be released. I was building another product that was released at MacWorld in 2000 (and still exists today)! I have a lot of funny stories. Steve didn't like our data center rack mounts being silver, we had to pull them all out and spray paint them black, because silver just wasn't acceptable, in a datacenter. That was my first day at work…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#194

Post by robomartin »

I would imagine not everyone on HN knows that Microsoft saved Apple from going bankrupt in 1997 [0].

Jobs made a deal with Gates for a $150MM investment that would effectively save Apple. Of course, both companies got something out of it. Nobody gives you that kind of money for free.

It a great business lesson. Your competitor doesn't have to lose for you to win.

It is also important to remain humble. You never know when you'll need help. I am going through an interesting moment right now while starting a new tech business.

While I have funded 100% of it myself so far, my best customer is someone who was in direct and intense competition with my other business 15 years ago. We are now talking about him coming-in as an investor and taking-over CEO responsibilities so I can focus on technology. Had we been nasty to each other over a decade ago, these conversations would have been impossible today.

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/29/steve-jobs-and-bill-gates-wh...

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#195

Post by icedchai »

hsm3 wrote: post #15
Aloha wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gil Amelio and Ellen Hancock were I think some of the most underrated management that Apple had, they at least had a better clue about where the company needed to go. Also, I think Michael Spindler did more damage to Apple than Scully did.

I strongly disagree. Amelio's Macworld 1997 keynote was a legendary failure, just a shocking public show of incompetence. He built zero confidence in anyone joining from NeXT. His book shows a poor understanding of what happened at Apple ("wow, I directed a VP to go write a new modern OS, and they just never did it!?!"). There was no useful depth of vision or insight coming from him or Hancock at the time (my opinion…

I remember watching that video, the one where he gives Steve the 20th Anniversary Mac! It was shockingly bad, but hilarious in its own way.

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#196

Post by zaps »

diskzero wrote: post #148
codexjourneys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Steve didn't like our data center rack mounts being silver, we had to pull them all out and spray paint them black, because silver just wasn't acceptable, in a datacenter. This strikes me as funny because of all the canonically silver iMacs and Macbooks that came afterward. Is black even an option?

Steve loved black, until he loved glossy pastels, then rich Corinthian leather interfaces and then brushed aluminum. This was one of the most very frustrating things about designing user interfaces for him; once you figured out his internal design language, he would radically change it overnight!

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#197

Post by Tijdreiziger »

jimt1234 wrote: post #80
baby wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you look at in engineering culture?

I had a friend interview at "Big Nameless Corp" a few years ago. He said when he saw that the engineers interviewing him all had Windows laptops, he knew immediately it wasn't an engineer-friendly culture. I always thought that was funny.

I don’t really see how that’s relevant given that WSL exists.

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#198

Post by solardev »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #192
aljfds3 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Palantir, there are no levels at all, everyone is just a simple software engineer. It's their relevant experience that gives an engineer leverage on a project.

I worked at a place like that before. A lot of people were grumpy that they were not progressing. Some of them were probably right; some were probably wrong. But it was clear to me that having a concrete thing to aim for (a new title) mattered. A lot. I take it that wasn't the case at Palantir. Since I'm convinced that all humans are status-seeking, I'm curious how Palantir satisfied that urge, if not w/ title differ…

Is it bad to discourage status-seeking behavior, such that the people are just that way... look elsewhere?

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#199

Post by rasz »

diskzero wrote: post #159
scroot wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ATG sounds like it was an incredibly creative little group, and it's a shame such a thing was more or less disbanded (along with letting HyperCard die, etc). SK8 in particular looks like it was very interesting. Someone needs to write a full retrospective of that group!

I agree. Larry Tesler is no longer around to write such a retrospective. I am not sure who else might be able to do it. One of my favorite ATG project was the Dylan[1] programming language. Larry was working a lot on what would become Stagecast.[2] There was so much going on, but the way Steve saw it, nothing was shipping. I think he made the right choice shutting it all down. As I said above, it wasn't at all clear…

ATG pushed Apple to the forefront of computer Video. They came out with Road Apple Video codec (Road Pizza) in 1991. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Advanced_Technology_Grou... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Video

Look up S3TC/DXTC texture compression, S3 copied Apple video codec verbatim and patented it for 3D graphics use. Somehow Apple missed that and didnt fight initial patent, result was losing couple iphone court cases 10 years later and purging S3TC from mobile.

Avid Media Composer was born and grew up on Mac hardware. Same goes for Adobe Premiere, all thanks to ATG work.

https://computerhistory.org/blog/quicktime-and-the-rise-of-m...

ATG might of saved Apple from going bankrupt in late nineties - Microsoft fucked up getting caught conspiring with Intel, paying third party contractor to steal QuickTime code https://www.theregister.com/1998/10/29/microsoft_paid_apple_... Thats the origin of the infamous "Microsoft saved Apple in the nineties" myth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5TdqfNE1QU In reality:

>David Boies, attorney for the DoJ, noted that John Warden, for Microsoft, had omitted to quote part of a handwritten note by Fred Anderson, Apple's CFO, in which Anderson wrote that "the [QuickTime] patent dispute was resolved with cross-licence and significant payment to Apple." The payment was $150 million.

Oral History of Larry Tesler part 1 of 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZUhobpe6XA

Oral History of Larry Tesler Part 2 of 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OloLXE4I5fw

Oral History of Larry Tesler Part 3 of 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJKW7A2rC4s

Oral History of Andy Grignon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_VtQBIEb6I Quicktime 1995-1998, iPod, iPhone https://www.businessinsider.com/meet-andy-grignon-apples-ipo... Currently Walmart of all places.

Re: Ask HN: Was anyone working at Apple during Steve Jobs' return in 1997?

#200

Post by E39M5S62 »

diskzero wrote: post #171
E39M5S62 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a PowerPC Mac in ~1998 and I put BeOS R4.5 on it. What a HUGE change from MacOS ... I couldn't believe a computer could actually act and respond like that! I jumped ship to Intel hardware to stick with BeOS. I'm very curious what you worked on at Be - the development team wasn't that large, was it?

The development team was very small. I worked on audio mixing code, capturing video encoded from Bt848 cards, audio and video codecs, anything related to audio and video timing. Several great programmers were there and continue to do amazing things at other companies big and small. I ended up working with many of them at Apple. At some point, it seems many had to choose between Google or Apple.

Very neat. I bought a cheap Bt848 card in '99. I used my BeOS machine to watch TV in my first college dorm. Thanks for all of the memories!
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