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Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

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Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#191

Post by yrgulation »

bottlepalm wrote: post #183
yrgulation wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All good code starts with the individual. In the PHP world it starts with the collective, not much room for creativity on the assembly line, and any such attempts are met by endless debates over petty code reviews - many of which can be replaced by linters. Of course i wrote in large teams, thats why i know that a large codebase with hundreds of people working on it is usually a sign of either bad practice (the monol…

It's interesting how you can observe thousands of developers utilizing Typescript and ORMs. Code bases with millions of lines. And have someone like you assume that these tools are 'useless' and solve 'self-inflicted' problems. Assume that large code bases are 'bad practice'. Assume 'breaking' something up is some amazing insight and will simply fix problems and not create new ones. Also assuming that we're not aware…

I appreciate your passion for php and i like our otherwise enjoyable debate, but instead of projections and a misuse of the term “assume” i would appreciate counter arguments.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#192

Post by cyanydeez »

johnfn wrote: post #47
coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> Why does this happen? It happens because these technologies solve real problem for some subset of their users. Usually when people are saying that technology has become too complicated, it's because they happen to be looking from a perspective where the problems that the technology solves are invisible to them. That doesn't mean that the problem isn't important - it just means the problem isn't important for them .…

Basically, it's the problem with vaccines and the rise of antivaxxers.

Because vaccines were so successful in their harm reduction to even elimination, there h

created a perverse belief that vaccines

were not effective, and then that they were actually harmful. Being ubiquitous and their effects the same, and the absence of their necessary disease.

Tools that solve problems experience a lifecycle that eventually if successful get weilded by people who never had firsthand experience of the problem.

Really a very large fractal problem space.

We envision a similar problem in autopilot system with 'safety' fall backs. For now, autopilots can disengage and let a pilot take control, but soon, we will run out of qualified pilots to disengage to, and no secure safety procedure.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#193

Post by the-printer »

hakunin wrote: post #144
the-printer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) Tool Game: Researching and setting up tools (2) Learning Game: Books, podcasts, courses (3) Maintenance Game: Cleaning up our desktop, desk, house, etc. (4) Process Game: Setting up new processes and following them I…I…I am triggered by this. So it’s as if, people such as myself are on the hunt for artificial positive feedback loops that are functionally beautified masks of procrastination. Fueled by, perhaps a…

I wouldn't write these off entirely. One of their positive outcomes is that you get to switch. Switching is important so you don't get bored or fed up. Just don't take these things too seriously, and don't stick your newfound hype into everything. Let things breathe, sleep on them. For like a few months or years.

I appreciate this piece of insight. It’s helping me find a balance.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#194

Post by Chris_Newton »

dimmke wrote: post #187
crabmusket wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of the current JS frontend framework paradigms do you think should be standardised and shipped in browsers? Would you choose a React-like model, or maybe something more Svelte-like? Or something different from either of those two that I'm not aware of? And the follow up question, which is pointed, is: if your proposed solution would look similar to current JS solution X, why would it be better than X? Is the go…

Great questions! >Which of the current JS frontend framework paradigms do you think should be standardised and shipped in browsers? The basic concept of "binding" data to a DOM element and having the DOM element update when you update the data instead of having to manually update it. That's something every modern frontend framework does. I think under the hood, the people who actually write the DOM apis would know ho…

I appreciate the ambition to reduce the complexity and tooling overheads. Unfortunately, I doubt we could define a sufficiently general API for the kind of functionality you’re talking about. There is too much variety in the applications we now build with web technologies.

Maybe we could do it for simple CRUD application UIs that are built using lightly styled forms and tables. To be fair, that might already be a substantial proportion of all web UI development.

But the kind of data binding you’re talking about wouldn’t help at all with implementing a word processor, an FPS game or a data-heavy app built around interactive visualisations. A foundation where UIs are built from simple pieces of DOM derived directly from corresponding variables in JS would severely restrict what we could build on top.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#195

Post by hsn915 »

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> Why does this happen

I wrote up my hypothesis here: https://hasen.substack.com/i/52275953/why-the-situation-pers...

Basically, programmers love complexity.

If they can't solve real problems, they will create fake problems so they can solve them.

They might not realize that's what they're doing.

Programmers love solving puzzles. It's why they program. The problem arises when they can't solve the real puzzle due to lack of experience (and lack of skill which comes from lack of practice), they solve secondary and tertiary puzzles that contribute nothing to the real problem at hand.

Instead of "How can I write 1000 lines of code to solve this problem?" they opt for "how can I configure these 20 libraries and glue them together so that a solution to the problem emerges from their interaction?"

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#196

Post by samhuk »

xd wrote: post #27
yrgulation wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is if you understand php you dont really need a framework. Sure composer packages are a must to avoid rewriting whats out there, but a framework not so much. When i conducted interviews i was shocked at how many php devs had no clue about what an sql injection is, they almost all answered “the framework does it for you” and it was such a basic thing.

Oh god ORM's, pointless waste of time and just an excuse not to learn SQL.. almost as bad as the #1 PHP fallacy; Smarty (which is still a thing).

I will be bias here as I made my own ORM (for typescript and postgre, no less), but I have to hard disagree. As other comments have pointed out, ORMs are about productivity, getting persistence done quickly.

Also what you just said is widely applicable - by your thinking, all programming languages are "a waste of time" and an excuse to not learn how to write binary files/machine code by hand?

Also, it doesn't have to be black and white - ORM or no ORM. No one is forcing you to choose between using an ORM for all of your persistence or not using an ORM for anything. It is continuous - you can use ORMs for a *proportion" of persistence logic.

Few more points, but I think the drift is caught.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#197

Post by rzimmerman »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #34
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #18

no such thing as frontend development. only full stack. and react for all the trillions of words written about it, what can you actually do with it? not much. also it's over-saturated as hell. you think there's high demand, you're right, now try applying for a position and see how it goes. there are two types of roles in modern web dev: 1 .90% of jobs are code monkey work: extremely saturated, you are competing with…

> request sudo from IT If you work for a company that doesn't give you Sudo on your own machine as a developer by default, find a new job Don't work for companies that still treat their professionals like children.

Absolutely unacceptable to not give a developer local root on their own machine. Manage profiles and install logging all you want, but requiring a developer to ask permission to install docker/git/tools they need is not security, it's incompetence.

If your employer won't give you the tools you need to do your job you should find another one. If your IT/security department is there to block you instead of help you get work done, you should also find a new job. I'm not saying walk out the door today, just that you don't deserve to be treated like that.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#198

Post by dominotw »

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

> The only thing you can do (besides leave it all behind and open a taqueria) is be a voice for simplicity.

This can seriously limit your earning potential by limiting your career advancement. You are forced to create complexity monsters for promotions at the type companies I've worked at.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#199

Post by not_the_fda »

I noped out of the whole web development thing. I know its where the world moved to, but I always felt it was a technological wrong turn. Java applets were great, sure they had issues, but they were solvable. But the tech giants had to ruin it so now we have JS frameworks of the week built on top of a system never meant for rich clients.

I stuck with desktop thick clients for embedded devices and scientific computing. Mostly C++ / Qt or Java / Swing / JavaFx as a tech stack. Couldn't be happier, the tech stack isn't changing under my feat constantly and I can quickly bang out features.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#200

Post by trog »

yrgulation wrote: post #30
tobinfekkes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "PHP is full of amateurs" trope is so tired. You know why there are amateurs? Because it's simple, understandable, maintainable, low barrier of entry. You know what amateurs do with simple things and time? Become professionals. Then they solve other people's problems, rather than solve never-ending developer problems we create ourselves. Having done PHP development for +12 years, I have never once had a debate ab…

You are right about the reasons there are so many amateurs in the php world. But i disagree with the statement that they become professionals over time. If you keep doing the same wrong thing over and over you just become better at doing the same wrong thing over and over, many being just old junior developers. Add the fresh supply of amateurs entering the php job market each year and you are stuck. There are elites…

You are living in a fantasy world if you think this is limited to one language
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