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Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

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191–200 of 211 posts

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? A lot of the hard part isn't the model, and especially in a world where bert, xgboost, optuna, pytorch, etc have solved much of the classic problem and forced 'real' DS to specialize on either the business consulting side (not math/engineering) or theory side (barely implemented). The rebrand of 'data analyst' (SQL, powerbi, . ..) to 'data scientist' by even top tech companies underscores this. It's not yet to…

NeurIPS paper, not neuroips paper

still not used to the new name ;-)

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? A lot of the hard part isn't the model, and especially in a world where bert, xgboost, optuna, pytorch, etc have solved much of the classic problem and forced 'real' DS to specialize on either the business consulting side (not math/engineering) or theory side (barely implemented). The rebrand of 'data analyst' (SQL, powerbi, . ..) to 'data scientist' by even top tech companies underscores this. It's not yet to…

Definitely agree with your first two paragraphs, but am confused by the pay paths. Can you expand on what the paths mean?

It's useful to work backwards from the knowledge a DS needs to be worth their weight. Imagine a small team of $400K/yr DS + $400K/yr DE + ... and whatever hw/sw . So say a $2-3M/yr project driving $3M+ of new growing revenue or $6-12M of annual savings. At bigger companies, even more magnitudes & pressure :)

The DS will likely:

- be close to the business case & business stakeholders to ask questions a normal lead can't

- know the relevant math + ML algorithms, and build up specializations pairing DS niches ("time series forecasting") with industry niches ("supply chains in manufacturing")

- enough engineering & performance understanding to work with a DE on going from small data sets to big ones

- have an intuitive feel for all of the above - how data/usecases/etc. go right/wrong

That's a lot!!

One path is jumping in as a low-paid intern or new grad and doing your time. But a pivot is different, esp. to get paid along the way. Most CS grads had little math ("intros to stats, combinatorics, & algs; dropped linear algebra"), weak ML ("did algs; intro to ML only covered kmeans & bayes; tried running a BERT model on some data"), and little intuition for how ML typically goes wrong ("what's class imbalance?"). So if they do get hired directly as a mid-level DS, it's probably on a team of the blind-leading-the-blind. Oops.

BUT SQL/Spark/K8S/pandas/regex are real skills. Doing the data engineering, ML operations, etc., around making an ML pipeline more than a fanciful notebook that wouldn't last a minute in production is real work. That stuff does pay well, and by working with the ML folks, you'd naturally get pulled into the ML tasks as well. DS write all sorts of bugs that surface as production evolves and the full team works together on, and new features that needs a team to make real. So taking a job that mixes engineering specialties with ML specialties is a smoother pivot path for the typical CS backgrounds I've seen. Over time, drift to more ML-y aspects of the projects happening until you can do the full hop. (Nit: That won't teach the math & deeper intuition, so I'd still do courses + projects on the side.)

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every large organisation tends to be like a small government. Inefficient, drown in politics and unable to change. There are exceptions - where someone principled dictator impose a VC style model where teams basically become independent startup and die or succeed. 100 fails, one becomes the next revenue maker for the company. That's how AWS was born.

There’s way less inefficiency and way more accountability in the public sector. Look at how efficient publicly funded schools are, for example, or publicly funded rail or healthcare. You could literally pick almost any industry. Accountability comes from elections. If managers in companies had to be re-elected it would be interesting.

This. Corporations are great at imposing mean-spirited personal accountability (i.e., if you're perceived to have fucked up, you get fucked) but that doesn't actually solve problems or change anything. People get fired, careers end, new faces replace the old, nothing gets learned. Of course, once you get into middle management you're exempted from the stack-ranking bukkake, and executives write their own performance reviews and almost never face consequences for their actions.

Companies are fantastic at making it look like accountability exists, because people at the bottom get punished for even the smallest mistakes, but avoiding any consequences that would affect high-ranking members or force the organization to change how it does business.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#194
post #187
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. BTW, I found there's a much cheaper ($80 -> $27) paperback version published a few days ago.

Can you share the link?

I just searched amazon for the title plus "paperback". Now that I look at it again, it says "by MAN (Author)" whereas the hard cover is "by Richard McElreath (Author)", so it's looking possibly scammy to me now, so caveat emptor...

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who can engineer infrastructure, pipelines and fire fight production issues is hard to find, but that’s not the point I was making. My apologies; It is real work; the point I was making is it’s not ML work , any more than writing a yaml file is ML work. If you want to write yaml files, any number of possibilities exist. If you want to work with machine learning, then don’t become a data engineer. The skills a…

What? A lot of the hard part isn't the model, and especially in a world where bert, xgboost, optuna, pytorch, etc have solved much of the classic problem and forced 'real' DS to specialize on either the business consulting side (not math/engineering) or theory side (barely implemented). The rebrand of 'data analyst' (SQL, powerbi, . ..) to 'data scientist' by even top tech companies underscores this. It's not yet to…

I agree with this. From my experience most of the data scientists I have worked with didn't exit the world of Jupyter notebooks. For them, code management, CI/CD, dev/stage/prod separation, etc. is a world of its own that they are not very comfortable with. Heck, they even used Sagemaker to create git repo for their Jupyter notebooks.

It doesn't mean that there aren't data scientists who have some engineering experience as well, but this seems to be rare. For that reason, getting those ML models that they painstakingly build to where they'll generate some real value is super hard. They just don't know where to start. Working across multiple teams and multiple functions is very challenging and it often creates friction. Therefore, creating tools and systems that will enable those data scientists to see the actual value of their labor is paramount.

That's why we're seeing a huge resurgence of so called MLOps tools and platforms that aim to solve all or some of the problems of the entire stack. We are very very early in this journey, but I believe 2020's will be for ML and AI what 2010's were for the cloud and data, ie. new Snowflakes and Databricks but for the actual ML apps. It's exciting.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#196
post #36

Can I suggest a longer, but (I think) better route? Try the Data/ML Engineer route. Instead of going directly into ML, try to work as a “supporter” of those doing ML. There’s a HUGE gap there, specially if you’re a good programmer. There are a lot of people in the “pure” ML space, people with science background, with phDs, etc. But there’s not enough people to support them: taking their models to producing, building…

Data Engineer is the outsourced part of what no ML researcher wants to do - a thankless, high-pressure, dead-end job which in no way leads to actually doing ML later - it would pigeon-hole the OP as unfit for real ML. The best way is to take Stanford Deep Learning courses at SCPD, build a reputation, do real ML work (even if it's not a PhD, it's the same courses Stanford PhDs take).

I'm struggling to find a single resource that ELI5 step-by-step how a neural network does digit classification (learns 0-9) in a grid of 3x5, like the traffic signal countdown timer

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#197

If you are looking for machine learning outside of Deep Learning, there are just 2 books 1. Elements of Statistical Learning (very frequentist treatment) by Hastie et.all [1] 2. Pattern Recognition and Machine Learning by Bishop(for a Bayesian treatment)[2] Both are freely available online. Reading one book will get you to top 5% practitioners and reading both will get you to top 1% [1] https://hastie.su.domains/Pape…

Machine Learning: a Probabilistic Perspective by Murphy may be a better reference. Murphy has more up-to-date books.

> Both are freely available online. Reading one book will get you to top 5% practitioners and reading both will get you to top 1%

At which percentage do you start meeting math PhDs from top schools? You'll most probably never meet their level of understanding just by reading books or doing exercises. Having read Bishop, I don't have one tenth of the knowledge I'd need to do research at that level, you need more exposure than that.

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely agree with your first two paragraphs, but am confused by the pay paths. Can you expand on what the paths mean?

It's useful to work backwards from the knowledge a DS needs to be worth their weight. Imagine a small team of $400K/yr DS + $400K/yr DE + ... and whatever hw/sw . So say a $2-3M/yr project driving $3M+ of new growing revenue or $6-12M of annual savings. At bigger companies, even more magnitudes & pressure :) The DS will likely: - be close to the business case & business stakeholders to ask questions a normal lead can…

In general, does the DE have higher salary than DS?

Am I understood correctly that there is much more demand for DE than for DS?

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who can engineer infrastructure, pipelines and fire fight production issues is hard to find, but that’s not the point I was making. My apologies; It is real work; the point I was making is it’s not ML work , any more than writing a yaml file is ML work. If you want to write yaml files, any number of possibilities exist. If you want to work with machine learning, then don’t become a data engineer. The skills a…

I first had the DE title 7 years ago (going into it having never heard of DE), and have been doing MLE/platform work for the past 5. You’re projecting your limited experience onto a poorly defined role that varies wildly from company to company. My experience is much different from yours: little firefighting, lots of actual building. Yes there is infrastructure, but any good programmer these days should be able to st…

What is the average salary for DE currently in US?

Re: Ask HN: In 2022, what is the proper way to get into machine/deep learning?

#200
post #99

My 2c (not exhaustive for what you want to do, probably): 1) Get some statistics/probability basics. It's full of people (you can see a lot of analyses on Kaggle) that "do machine learning" but make very silly mistakes (e.g. turn categorical data into a float and use it as a continuous variable when training a model). 2) take a look at traditional machine learning approaches. Nowadays you're swamped by DL (a lot of g…

I am a CS major but I was always bad at math. Can you recommend your favorite resources for learning probability and statistics basics?

I was a CS major who made a 20 year career in software who was always told I was bad at math and struggled all through school with math. Somewhere about ten years into my career I began to realize that it wasn't really that I was bad with math, but that the way math is taught just doesn't work for most people. And, a lot of that math that you were expected to learn is really only directly applicable in very specific circumstances that you might not encounter in your career - which is not to say that the mental exercise of learning them weren't worthwhile!

So my point is, if it isn't making sense the way you are being taught, go explore other avenues. There's no way these machine learning algorithms would have made sense to me as a 20-something undergrad, but as a 40-something who can explore them via software rather than a whiteboard, they really aren't that complicated to get started.

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