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Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

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191–200 of 219 posts

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#191
post #73

"must be female" Yes? It's illegal. This instruction removes the chance of any other member type of that protected class from being hired. You can report it to the NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or your state AG. You'll have to document everything while being careful not to break any recording/privacy laws. Not sure anything will really be done. Probably just bring hardship on yourself.

The problem is that even if they remove the "must be female" requirement from documents, it's still going to be enforced because that's their goal. How did the industry allow such sexism and racism to penetrate?

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#192
From U.S. Government Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices

Prohibited Employment Policies/Practices

Under the laws enforced by EEOC, it is illegal to discriminate against someone (applicant or employee) because of that person's race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information. It is also illegal to retaliate against a person because he or she complained about discrimination, filed a charge of discrimination, or participated in an employment discrimination investigation or lawsuit.

The law forbids discrimination in every aspect of employment.

The laws enforced by EEOC prohibit an employer or other covered entity from using neutral employment policies and practices that have a disproportionately negative effect on applicants or employees of a particular race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), or national origin, or on an individual with a disability or class of individuals with disabilities, if the polices or practices at issue are not job-related and necessary to the operation of the business. The laws enforced by EEOC also prohibit an employer from using neutral employment policies and practices that have a disproportionately negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older, if the policies or practices at issue are not based on a reasonable factor other than age.

Job Advertisements

It is illegal for an employer to publish a job advertisement that shows a preference for or discourages someone from applying for a job because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.

For example, a help-wanted ad that seeks "females" or "recent college graduates" may discourage men and people over 40 from applying and may violate the law.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#194
post #191
post #73

"must be female" Yes? It's illegal. This instruction removes the chance of any other member type of that protected class from being hired. You can report it to the NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or your state AG. You'll have to document everything while being careful not to break any recording/privacy laws. Not sure anything will really be done. Probably just bring hardship on yourself.

The problem is that even if they remove the "must be female" requirement from documents, it's still going to be enforced because that's their goal. How did the industry allow such sexism and racism to penetrate?

Historically speaking, it's always been there. It seems to be getting a little better over the generations.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#195
post #73

"must be female" Yes? It's illegal. This instruction removes the chance of any other member type of that protected class from being hired. You can report it to the NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or your state AG. You'll have to document everything while being careful not to break any recording/privacy laws. Not sure anything will really be done. Probably just bring hardship on yourself.

This is likely a matter for the EEOC or the state version. I don't see why those other agencies would be involved. Unlike OSHA, I don't think the EEOC has a process for accepting tips, and I don't think they open original investigations. I believe someone has to claim they have been harmed. OP could encourage someone to apply, see if they get turned away on the basis of sex, and then they could file a charge of discr…

I don't think the EEOC has exclusive jurisdiction. Do they do their own investigation, or do they have the FBI do it for them?

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#196
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem...distorting employment markets makes the stereotypes TRUE! Say you have a software engineering team, and it's nine men and one woman, and it's that way because the pool you hire out if is 9:1, and you only hire from the top decile. If someone decrees that Thou Shalt Hire Women, you certainly can...it's just that the candidates you get will be less than in the top decile. If you go as far…

Not true when the problem is outreach, eg companies that rely too much on existing employees' alumni and social networks to recruit. I know of some people from historically underrepresented backgrounds who'd never have been hired where they are now without active outreach on the recruiters' part, and they were definitely in the top decile

You're right that if your search is incomplete the sort of thing you describe can happen. In my industry (academia) search is complete. Everyone looking for a job knows all the job postings.

That said, I think the problem is that overall there aren't enough qualified under-represented minorities to get up to proportional representation. If there were, it would be a very confusing market failure. What's really going on is two things:

1) You can't be both under-privileged and as capable as everyone else on average. Being poor, abused, discriminated against, etc. affects our ability to do things like be really smart and get good at software engineering.

2) For those who are under-represented but not on average under-privileged (e.g. women in mathematics), we are seeing the result of a difference in preferences between men and women. Blue Team elites really don't want to admit that there are systematic differences in who prefers what that correlate with things like gender and race, but it is obviously the case. It's not rampant sexism relative to biology that explains why there are few women in e.g. mathematics, it's because women prefer to do other things on average. And there's nothing wrong with that, and we as a liberal society need to accept it. Of course, this is absolutely not to claim that women can't be just as good at maths.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#197
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree that this is a win-win. My friend recently went through another round of interviews trying to find a job. He got tons of follow up interviews, only to be told that the company decided to hire internally, or some other excuse that strongly implied they already had another candidate in mind. My friend, it ought not surprise you to discover, fits into several "minority" categories. The worst industry…

This isn't necessarily a DEI thing and more that the company has some dumb policy that you have to have job descriptions posted publicly for $x number of weeks and interview at least $y candidates. And then you make internal promotions go through the same process because reasons. Source: have worked for companies that have this policy, academia especially is famous for this level of institutional incompetence.

What was most aggregating is that, because my friend fit the DEI categories, he always got passed through to subsequent interviews even though they had no intention of hiring him, all so they could pad their DEI checklists.

Had be been your run of the mill white guy, far fewer of them would have wasted his time.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#198
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't necessarily a DEI thing and more that the company has some dumb policy that you have to have job descriptions posted publicly for $x number of weeks and interview at least $y candidates. And then you make internal promotions go through the same process because reasons. Source: have worked for companies that have this policy, academia especially is famous for this level of institutional incompetence.

Not sure why this guy is downvoted. His comment is 100% true in at least some contexts. In a past life I worked at a state university. Greater than 80% of positions during my tenure were filled by nepotism. Friends and family of a currently employed person. Every time they would post the job, bring in 2 poor sobs to interview alongside the friend or family member, and then hire the friend or family member even when t…

Yes, academia and private can both be bad about this, but because of DEI initiatives, my friend got sent to many second and third interviews even though they didn't plan on hiring him.

Had he been a vanilla white guy, fewer places would have wasted his time. Instead they used him. Universities were especially bad about doing this, though not the only ones.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#199

Might be worth asking Reddit's r/legaladvice (but take what they say with a grain of salt). In the UK this would be illegal afaik - you are only allowed to favour one sex over the other if there are two equivalent applicants for a position and you are trying to counteract an existing imbalance in your team. But you can't outright reject one sex from the start.

Done! https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/sayz3d/am_i_be...

Lots of redditors saying go to HR. That is a bad idea. Your company's DEI initiatives probably originated in the HR department. Or they originated higher up, and HR was tapped to implement. Either way HR is not your ally.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#200
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that even if they remove the "must be female" requirement from documents, it's still going to be enforced because that's their goal. How did the industry allow such sexism and racism to penetrate?

Historically speaking, it's always been there. It seems to be getting a little better over the generations.

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