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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#191
post #116

Everyone is well aware that any promise of company loyalty isn't worth the time it takes to say it. To attract in-demand employees, you have to make every week count for them so if there is an acquisition or yet another useless management shuffle, they can walk away without regretting the time they invested. The easiest way to achieve this is to offer some amount of equity and/or the exact weekly schedule and vacatio…

"Everyone is well aware that any promise of company loyalty isn't worth the time it takes to say it."

100%

I was hired by a company that said they don't outsource, they don't lay off employees, and that the pay structure was good (3 10% promotions and a 4th larger one if going into management, plus a $25k-ish profit sharing bonus).

Within 2-3 years, they started outsourcing, the promotions turned into 7% raises with the need to get 5 of them to be making near the same amount when considering the change to profit sharing. The chance to go into management and get that money was greatly reduced, requiring you to work both as a PM and a manager with pay being about the same as the PM role. Within 6 years they started laying people/groups off.

This is a company that has a high reputation for doing the right thing, marketed themselves as different, etc. Yet I have seen the erosion of pay and benefits, violation of their own policies, and all while trying to sell it to you as some great benefit.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies with good engineering culture do engineering well. Companies with a poor culture do most things poorly. Very true, but the "good" companies will be good regardless of what methodology they use. And it's rarely a one-size-fits-all approach. They recognize what works and what doesn't, without slavishly adhering to a single doctrine in the face of all evidence.

So... when you're looking at a job ad, what words are you looking for that tell you a place has good engineering culture? I'm getting that 'agile' is not one of those words, but what words are?

I'm indifferent to seeing "agile" in a job ad. Getting a job or client is like dating ... you find out what they mean by their bio over a few dates.

If I ever accept a client or job, there's always a grace period.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#193
post #19

PART-TIME and REMOTE are the keywords you are looking for. Also, stay away from Agile/SCRUM bullshit. I personally stay away from companies who have "Agile Coaches" or "SCRUM Masters".

YES. Part-time jobs are getting more popular. Some people are looking for works that give them more free time. Look at GumRoad which offers part-time jobs with competitive salary ($100 - $150 per hour).

Wow that is good

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#194
post #183

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figur…

This. I was going to write out my own list, but you covered everything I wanted to say. I would counter that most companies can't attract or retain talent because they don't really want it. Most of the work that needs to be done in the world doesn't require the top 5 percent of the pool.

This is a difficult thing for companies and people to accept, but it's very true.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#195

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figur…

Are they hiring? :)

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#196
Why are they leaving? Is it just the money? Are you sure?

Is there some other sweetener missing?

A recruiter friend of mine says she could probably steal half of most corporation's engineers just by learning the non-financial pain points and addressing them. Businesses often have weird ideas about how nasty / ruthless they can be. Usually though its little things not even on the nasty / ruthless scale.

Direction/Management style is often a big factor. Not to mention the work itself.

The other quirk was about the transition from junior to middle to senior. These are often mismanaged and that can sour others opinions.

The other obvious one is people leaving to get a pay rise is this is often the only way to get one.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#197
Looking through all the comments, it seems to me that there is a huge differnce between contracting in the US and contracting in Europe, and that that difference is why more European developers favour contracting than US developers do.

Contracting in Europe (especially in the UK and Ireland) is largely controlled by recruiting agencies, who act as middle men between companies and contractors. A contractor looking for a new contract deals with these agencies, not with the end company [usually].

In the US, a contractor is expected to find and manage clients themselves.

Perm salaries are also significantly lower in Europe, making day rate contracting incredibly lucrative for a senior dev who can charge top tier rates.

My own experience after working as a contractor for 9 years:

1. Money in my pocket is typically 50% more than it would be compared to a reasonably payed perm position.

2. All the perks offered from a perm job I can avail of via my own Ltd company at reduced cost: health insurance, pension contributions, tax efficient travel schemes, etc.

3. Six month contracts are almost always rolling contracts, as in, they are renewed every six months until I decide to leave. I always decide to leave eventually, the contract never ends and forces me to leave. Any gaps between contracts are there because I choose to have them.

4. Projects are ALWAYS more interesting. Business as usual, bug fixing teams, seem to be made up of perm devs who have years of domain knowledge. The greenfield projects tend to go to contractors or teams that are comprised of a lot of contractors, probably because less domain knowledge is required for new projects.

5. Learning on the job is part of contracting. If you don't know X technology, you pick it up as you go along. With the odd very focused exception, I've found that there is no expectation that contractors be 10X or ninja developers.

6. Paperwork takes me about 10 hours per year -- that includes my company VAT returns, preparing docs to send my accountant once a year, and meeting that accountant once a year.

7. Expenses are a huge thing. New lap tops, phones, courses I want to do. All covered by my company as part of my job.

8. The biggest one as far as I'm concerned. Moving from contract to contract, seeing the different ways that teams build their products, picking up new technologies every year -- it all boosts your confidence as a developer. You've seen so many different ways of approaching problems and used so many variations of the tech that nothing phases you. Your confidence is huge.

9. No Leet code or drawn out interviews. I've never done a Leet or online test for a contract. I've rarely had more than a single interview to land a contract. I've never done a white board interview. The hiring process is just easy and simple, as it should be.

10. I write code all day. I specify in each contract that I'm not a team lead or a junior dev mentor. There's no expectation in the companies that I work with that I assume team leadership roles.

11. A day has 7.5 working hours. That's it. No expectation of overtime, or on-call. A day rate contractor works the 7.5 hour day and that's it.

The above 11 points are all based on contracting in Europe. I have no doubt that American contractors would disagree or question each point, but that disagreement is probably geographic and based on the different way things work in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#198
Because money isn't the only thing that matters. Sure, money is great, but it's not the sole determinant of happiness in my experience.

Other things that matter:

* being part of a team, pulling towards a goal.

* stability. Contracting is awesome, but often feast or famine.

* work life balance. Yes, as a contractor you control your working hours, but it can be hard to stop working at 5pm too.

* benefits (if in the USA, health care is huge and the plans with an employer are almost always better)

* ability to explore different areas. When you are a contractor, you are expected to be top notch at what you do. Often that means you don't get to explore new things (except on your own time, which you should do). It's nice to get paid to learn as an employee.

I think that contracting is great, but so is employment.

Just like when you are a startup you should compete on your own terms (your USP), if you are looking to keep senior developers, find out what you can offer (some of the above) which contracting cannot. (How? Ask senior devs in your market!)

Source: I've been a contractor and a full time employee, about a 50% split during my career.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#199
Lots and lots of equity. For the most part, money talks. But it doesn't have to be guaranteed cash. You can offer a risky gamble instead. FAANG pays $1000, but instead you can offer a coin flip for $2200, or a snake-eyes dice-roll for $50k or something like that instead.

People will tell you all kinds of other things that simply do not matter as much for people who are not already wealthy. Good team, nice people, important mission, free lunch massages, etc. But give a person the choice between all those things and an extra $100k income, and I'm pretty sure you can guess what they'll choose. At least most people.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#200
Make a company that does not suck to work for.

A lot of companies talk big about wanting to make their company "a great place to work". They talk about benefits, about inclusion, about a lot of ancillary things other than the work.

But when you start working on work, you find out there's a hornet's nest of beaurocracy, of office politics, departments run by finance rather than commitment to executing business needs effectively, lack of training, lack of industry standards, a sprawl of independent redundant silos, and a lot of people who seem to have no idea what the hell is going on. And of course they'll put you on-call 24/7 and force you to work overtime to meet unrealistic deadlines, without extra pay.

Most companies I've worked for, all of the engineers have known how shitty things are, and they've known how to fix it all. They tell their line-managers, and the line managers tell the middle managers, and the middle managers don't tell the executives. Everything stays shitty because the engineers are the ones who have to deal with the shit and can't do anything about it.

A contractor only has to deal with that shit in small bursts and can produce good work that somebody else can deal with actually running. It's the best way to avoid the long-term nightmare of working in shitty permanent roles. And the pay is better. And you can take a vacation!

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