Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#191

Post by andyidsinga » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:07 PM UTC

rsp1984 wrote: post #160

nlawalker wrote: post #64

A piece of simple, concrete, implementable advice I read recently that I really like is "communicate in the language of options , not demands, imperatives, requests, or preferences." Imagine yourself having a conversation with your manager or someone in a relatively similar position about a decision or suggestion you have. How often do you say things like "we have to", "we need to", "we really should", "can we", or "…

Given the support for this answer I will likely get downvoted for this, but I disagree with this advice. I am a co-founder (and CTO) of a small company myself and hence get to talk to the folks in my company quite regularly. I disagree with the notion that passion or personal preference doesn't belong in a decision-making process. Not only does it belong there, it is even a critical part of it, assuming of course tha…

I used to provide several options with background and rationale to my boss.

One day, he said, with a slightly frustrated tone, something along the lines of : "Andy: you're providing what appear to be good options and detail here - but someone in a "senior" position should recommend a path forward. Don't just give me 3 options that I need to then go and figure out for myself."

from that point on I've always tried to provide a hard recommendation - and rationale that includes a sort of decision tree approach. "We start with ______ [with good reasons to do so] then if X comes to pass we continue with it and if Y comes to pass we can pick a a different path with another option I have as backup."

The result seems to often be a discussion more about the upsides/downsides and decision tree relative to the business the organization is trying to support (a good thing) vs technical merits of the options which the technical team is trusted to be well versed in.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#192

Post by School-Cotton » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

wanderr wrote: post #123

School-Cotton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I disagree extremely strongly with this. If you are evaluating someone's work and you can fire them, then you are their boss. There is a trend of calling managers "supporters" where I work, and I absolutely can't stand it. It seriously reminds me of "War is Peace" from 1984. I don't mind having a boss; hierarchies are fine. But I feel extremely patronized and condescended to when people try…

Where I work, direct reports evaluate their managers and managers can't arbitrarily fire people. As a manager my job is primarily to help engineers grow and clear obstacles for them and provide air cover when they need it. Not all companies view management this way - I've worked at other companies where the role of a manager was to make sure that every ounce of productivity is being squeezed out of engineers, and at…

Well where I work is the same way, but presumably it's not the same where the person I was replying to works, since he refers to himself as not having a boss (i.e., presumably he is pretty high up the hierarchy).

And even though managers can't arbitrarily fire you at big/reputable companies, they certainly have a gigantic amount of influence in performance review discussions.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#193

Post by School-Cotton » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

suff wrote: post #118

School-Cotton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if I sound harsh but I disagree extremely strongly with this. If you are evaluating someone's work and you can fire them, then you are their boss. There is a trend of calling managers "supporters" where I work, and I absolutely can't stand it. It seriously reminds me of "War is Peace" from 1984. I don't mind having a boss; hierarchies are fine. But I feel extremely patronized and condescended to when people try…

Another way to put it is building a culture that helps everyone perform better. There are conscious levers that conscious managers can pull to make sure his happen. Have you ever worked in an environment where managers created conflicting goals or perverse incentives? Did that help teamwork, or create frustration? Do frustrated teams perform at their best? How many people have you managed?

Everywhere I've worked from McDonald's to tech companies, managers were trying to help everyone perform better (i.e., make more money for the business per hour).

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#194

Post by gerbilly » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

warent wrote: post #190

gerbilly wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that many of these terms exist not to make communication clearer, but to obfuscate, to hedge. It's a type of obscurantism. It also sounds like a bunch of shibboleths, secret handshakes of the C level people. Why do we accept terms like re-structuring, downsizing etc? Can't we just call it what it is: "Firing people?"

Because there's more information being communicated in "downsizing" or "re-restructuring." All downsizing involves firing people, but not all "firing people" involves downsizing. True, people can abuse those terms for a doublespeak effect, but they have legitimate uses.

> True, people can abuse those terms for a doublespeak effect, but they have legitimate uses.

Yeah, and opium sometimes has legitimate uses in pain management.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#195

Post by borski » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #192

wanderr wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I work, direct reports evaluate their managers and managers can't arbitrarily fire people. As a manager my job is primarily to help engineers grow and clear obstacles for them and provide air cover when they need it. Not all companies view management this way - I've worked at other companies where the role of a manager was to make sure that every ounce of productivity is being squeezed out of engineers, and at…

Well where I work is the same way, but presumably it's not the same where the person I was replying to works, since he refers to himself as not having a boss (i.e., presumably he is pretty high up the hierarchy). And even though managers can't arbitrarily fire you at big/reputable companies, they certainly have a gigantic amount of influence in performance review discussions.

It's not that I'm not their boss; of course I am, pretty much by definition. I'm higher up on the hierarchy (context: I'm a cofounder and CTO)

The point I'm trying to make isn't that I'm not their boss, but that by virtue of great employees being hard to find, it's my job to keep them happy and productive. Not just productive, but happy is important too. It costs the company way more to find a new employee than to keep an existing one. As such, provided an employee is doing a good job (which is a requirement in any role), it's my job to ensure they are as productive and happy as possible. That doesn't mean I don't have the hard conversation or fire if they stop working, but it does mean that my role is to be an effective shit-umbrella and keep them happy, inspired, and excited.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#196

Post by borski » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #193

suff wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to put it is building a culture that helps everyone perform better. There are conscious levers that conscious managers can pull to make sure his happen. Have you ever worked in an environment where managers created conflicting goals or perverse incentives? Did that help teamwork, or create frustration? Do frustrated teams perform at their best? How many people have you managed?

Everywhere I've worked from McDonald's to tech companies, managers were trying to help everyone perform better (i.e., make more money for the business per hour).

Ah, you're conflating things here. Bad managers often think making more money for the business per hour is a 'get more work out of the employees per minute' strategy. That doesn't work, due to the off-pay benefits a happy employee provides that a bullied or unhappy one doesn't. Staying a few minutes late to finish up a job, coming on time, not fudging their hours a few minutes here and there, recruiting on your behalf by telling their smart friends about how much they love their job, being willing to come up with new ideas to improve the business, etc.

Many bad managers think short term, and are looking to squeeze every ounce of work out of their employees, which leads to burnout, disillusionment, and resentment. My point is it's far more important to make them happy and have them convinced they want to do their best work, not because they fear losing their job, but because they feel inspired, capable, trusted, well-compensated / rewarded, and like they have autonomy.

If McDonald's had that, their turnover would be a hell of a lot lower, guaranteed.

[edit] Here's an example of what I mean by the unpaid extras I refer to: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/bullying-bosses-ne...

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#197

Post by School-Cotton » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

borski wrote: post #195

School-Cotton wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well where I work is the same way, but presumably it's not the same where the person I was replying to works, since he refers to himself as not having a boss (i.e., presumably he is pretty high up the hierarchy). And even though managers can't arbitrarily fire you at big/reputable companies, they certainly have a gigantic amount of influence in performance review discussions.

It's not that I'm not their boss; of course I am, pretty much by definition. I'm higher up on the hierarchy (context: I'm a cofounder and CTO) The point I'm trying to make isn't that I'm not their boss, but that by virtue of great employees being hard to find, it's my job to keep them happy and productive. Not just productive, but happy is important too. It costs the company way more to find a new employee than to ke…

Right, that's the ideal of a good boss, but a boss, nonetheless. I think we agree about more than we disagree about, here. I just think words can be important, and when someone in a position of hierarchical power, no matter how benevolently they wield it, says things like "really, they're MY boss", it might be intended completely harmlessly, but can actually come off as patronizing.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#198

Post by borski » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

joejerryronnie wrote: post #103

borski wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is super important. Having someone come to the conclusion you care to on their own will solidify it in their own heads as their idea, making it an obvious choice. I’ve even gone so far as to argue against it with a few surface arguments, to cement it in their minds. Is that manipulative? Sometimes. But if it’s for the benefit of the team, you do what has to be done.

This is literally the secret to being successful at business and politics.

I'm continually surprised by how many people don't recognize this as such a massive differentiator in one's ability to be persuasive.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#199

Post by shostack » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

andyidsinga wrote: post #191

rsp1984 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the support for this answer I will likely get downvoted for this, but I disagree with this advice. I am a co-founder (and CTO) of a small company myself and hence get to talk to the folks in my company quite regularly. I disagree with the notion that passion or personal preference doesn't belong in a decision-making process. Not only does it belong there, it is even a critical part of it, assuming of course tha…

I used to provide several options with background and rationale to my boss. One day, he said, with a slightly frustrated tone, something along the lines of : "Andy: you're providing what appear to be good options and detail here - but someone in a "senior" position should recommend a path forward. Don't just give me 3 options that I need to then go and figure out for myself." from that point on I've always tried to p…

This is the approach I often take. I'm paid to be an expert and have answers. If the situation has multiple paths, it is on me to weigh those with the context I have and be prepared to adapt when I inquire about other considerations I may have been previously unaware of.

There's nothing wrong with having an informed opinion as long as it isn't presented in a combative or selfish manner.

That said, depending on who else may be in the room, if you naturally take that approach, it is often good to sit back and let others speak, or encourage them to if they are not the assertive type. Leadership is as much (if not more) about listening than speaking.

Re: Ask HN: How to speak like a leader, not like an engineer?

#200

Post by shostack » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #47

xkgt wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an engineering manager until recently, didn't get much enjoyment out of my role since I had to focus more on whats and whys instead of hows which is what excites my engineering mind. Now I have changed job to an engineering role and having lots of fun building stuff and learning new things. However at times I wonder whether I made the right call, whether my career will stagnate if I am not interested in moving…

One thing I have seen some managers do at my company is use their coding skills to help streamline their work, i.e. create scripts to help pull data so they can create charts or query for data to form some analytics to help inform decision making on the right path forward. I have also seen some still be able to get into the nitty gritty too to help solve problems that are critical & beyond their reports' abilities at…

It's funny but sometimes I feel like I spend as much time doing reporting as someone as when I was entry level. The difference is sometimes my team isn't able to run these reports or I'd rather they focus on other things.