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Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

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Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#191

Post by Spooky23 »

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #67
markbnj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good answer. It boils down to what you're paying for. My dad was a suspension and steering engineer at General Motors years ago, and he impressed upon me the number of evolutions these designs go through. The current shape of a standard "middle class car" is highly optimized to give the best trade-off between aerodynamics, fuel efficiency, interior capacity, structural strength, etc. That's what a typical m…

> A Ferrari is entirely optimized to look hot and go fast, and makes a huge number of concessions to those goals. Just try using one as a daily driver and grocery hauler and you'll see why few people do that. But then there are sports cars that are meant as daily drivers, like the BMW M5. The former CTO of Intel said he owns one and uses it as such.

Ferraris are reflections of their owners. If you're actually driving one to work every day, the point of that exercise is to let the world know that you're the alpha ape.

BMW 5 series is the Accord for rich people. An M5 is your "I like cars" model.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#192

Post by schappim »

vidanay wrote: post #59
giarc wrote: post #38

I can offer an opinion not yet seen in this thread. It comes down to tolerances. My father works for GM as a tool and die maker. He says that GM is obsessed with tolerances in their panels. This means that the gap between the hood and front quarter panel is the same near the windshield as it is near the headlights. Same goes for all other areas of the car. It's hard to get right. If you start to get more complex desi…

This, this, this. In simpler terms: You can't build a "Ferarri shaped car" at the same price as an Chevy Impala because the shape is a part of the cost.

We'll they could if they used different materials: http://gtspirit.com/83504/gallery/9412/132107/

Seriously though, advances in composite materials science/ manufacturing techniques shouldn't put this too far off.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#193

Post by rhizome »

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #137
tsunamifury wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is the very practical definition of "tacky" design. It's when something visually promises something that it isn't in performance. Form and function are very much tied together and a car that looks like a Ferrari but feels like a civic would cause a negative cognitive dissonance

Something that's a bit more understated like a Maserati but driving like an average sedan would be mostly fine though.

Currently, that kind of exists in 2dr form as the Toyota 86 platform (Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_86

For 4dr GTs, it gets quite a bit tougher to compete with second-hand Maserati prices.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#194

Post by cardiffspaceman »

As an example of what happens when this is attempted, I give you the Mistubishi GTO (AKA 3000 GT overseas, and also Dodge Stealth in USA) [1] According to someone's dogged research it seems that 130K units were sold during its existence [2]. According to an annoyed woman's opinion I heard on the street, "Eeewww it looks like a Ferrari". I know that the cheapest Stealth version sold for under $20K in 1991. The Wikipedia article mentions the various competitors, several of which have strong followings to this day, and of which at least one has been semi-revived. I of course did own one of the cheapest models of the Stealth. I personally consider the most engaging alternative to be the ca-1991 300Z, which was too expensive for me, but still I think a middle-class car.

I think the current middle-class gearhead car is either a full-on Q-ship (it's fast but you can't tell by looking), or a sports sedan like BMW 3xx or Audi A4. Whether that is because no more hatchback coupes are sold or because customers decided to give up hatchback coupes I do not know.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_GTO

[2] http://www.suthnr.com/garage/3s-production.html

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#195

Post by coev »

IgorPartola wrote: post #173
durandal1 wrote: post #113

In the documentary Objectified (recommended!), a BMW designer brings up the point that a car design should express what the car is . If there's a mismatch between the look, and how it feels to drive, it will be rejected by customers.

This is a good answer. Hundai comes to mind as a brand that puts overly slick bodies on underpowered cars. It looks silly. And yes there is the Genesis, but that car is not cheap. What would be fun is if manufacturers took more liberties with design. I loved my Scion xB because it was "ugly beautiful" and also very functional. I really like the new Civic: aggressive yet understated. More of this would be really nice.…

The Scion brand was discontinued last year.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#196

Post by TylerE »

mailslot wrote: post #186
jgalt212 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actually, that in an of itself, is a good question. Name all the moderately price mid-engine sports cars on the market.

The Toyota MR2 & Pontiac Fiero were midengine and low priced.

The Alpha Romeo 4C is also comparatively inexpensive for what it us (Under $60k).

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#197

Post by dpweb »

iaw wrote: post #120
durandal1 wrote: post #113

In the documentary Objectified (recommended!), a BMW designer brings up the point that a car design should express what the car is . If there's a mismatch between the look, and how it feels to drive, it will be rejected by customers.

The Fiero comes to mind.

Had a GT in high school. Car was alot of fun. Mid-engine and big sunroof that came out and stored under the hood.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#198

Post by cityhall »

heavymark wrote: post #24

Middle class cars at aimed at different needs than highend cars. A highend car like a Ferrari may aim at image and performance solely and not consider how that car would handle/drive in adverse conditions like snow or concerns for MPG. Most middle class cars are highly optimized shape wise for MPG as well as handling all types of road and weather which is why tires on performance cars look so different than middle cl…

That explains why you don't see track-inspired designs but not why you don't see cheap clones of Bentleys and higher end Mercedes.

Hyundai actually seemed to break with convention a few years ago and make their cheap cars resemble more expensive competitors, presumably because they didn't have anything in that market to devalue.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#199

Post by nickpsecurity »

tbrock wrote: post #189
nickpsecurity wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they use the same equipment and plants that make Ferrari's to make Fiats? If not, then that wouldn't be true as they'd have to use more expensive equipment for Fiats than what they need.

See: Maserati They use the same design chops, technology and factory to make the similar looking cars with less performance than Ferrari. Also owned by Fiat.

Don't Maserati's also cost a lot of money like Ferrari's? Or can you get them the price of Fiats? Might point is more about what using weaker tech in plants does for them on low end than the high end. I assume Ferrari is a rip off financially supported by their branding.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#200

Post by ethbro »

NamTaf wrote: post #178
giarc wrote: post #38

I can offer an opinion not yet seen in this thread. It comes down to tolerances. My father works for GM as a tool and die maker. He says that GM is obsessed with tolerances in their panels. This means that the gap between the hood and front quarter panel is the same near the windshield as it is near the headlights. Same goes for all other areas of the car. It's hard to get right. If you start to get more complex desi…

Building on this comment as a mech eng who works in metal construction of heavy industry, it's also to do with the economies of scale and profit margins. As you reduce the purchase price, you need to increase volume to ensure profits. Similarly, you want to absolutely minimise construction cost to maximise said profit. As you increase volume and minimise construction cost, you rapidly reduce the scope of possible man…

> relatively inoffensive sedan shape that Just Works for all parties and still satisfies that litany of constraints on the design, manufacture and maintenance

I feel like you've encapsulated the essence of Toyota.

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