Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 207 posts

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#191

Post by webmaven »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #74
westiseast wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask respectfully what you mean by fluent? Only because...the textbook definition and the colloquial definition differ. I think generally when people say 'fluent' they mean 'native speaker level at reading, writing and speaking language X', whereas fluent actually means you can speak without hesitation on a range of topics. Just a clarification, not an attack! Edit: Plus, I wouldn't knock wordlists. I started tr…

I also have a problem with the word "fluent". Ok you say you're fluent, here's a simple self-check: Explain to someone in the language you claim to be fluent in how you'd go about making a fire without any matches. (hint: you need to use words like tinder, kindling, flint, etc.). If you can't do this, or grapple with the fact that you don't have a repertoire of these words in your vocabulary, you might want to recons…

That's... a terrible test.

I am native speaker/reader/writer fluent in my 2nd language, and I don't know the word for kindling. I am reasonably certain there is one, but would have to look it up, and so would any other native speaker that wasn't a linguist.

In fact, if I did happen to know the word and used it, no native speaker would understand me without an explanation.

The way I (and practically any other native speaker) would describe that portion of the task would be to say something like "use a small amount of paper, twigs, sawdust, dry leaves, or any other easily ignited material as a starter".

I used to get very frustrated at all the English words that didn't have direct equivalents, such that I found the 2nd language rather limiting in it's expressiveness.

In fact, I am pretty sure that the way most native speakers would approach the 'explain how to make fire' task would to say "here, let me show you how to do it."

Example: there exist equivalents to the words shiny, glittery, sparkly and most other common variations on the concept (some translate to the same word), but if you want to express 'pearlescent', the best you could do is 'lustrous like a pearl'.

Worse yet, often if I did find an obscure equivalent word and used it no one else would recognize it, and even if they figure it out from context they would still think I was weird or trying to score points with my vocabulary.

Further, in the 20 years since I actually lived there, using English loan words has become rampant, so much so that by not using them my speech comes across as rather affected, stuffy, and snobbish (eg. the word for upgrade (noun or verb) is for all intents and purposes 'upgrade', even though a perfectly understandable equivalent does actually exist).

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#193

Post by mettamage »

ivm wrote: post #120
mettamage wrote: post #114

Hmm... every comment I read actually talks about making an effort. Let me give some mundane advice. For English, I didn't have to make much of an effort. I was 12, loved Dragonball Z -- we have subtitled television. I wanted to know more about it, the US was further in the series than The Netherlands, so I started reading English websites even though I didn't understand much of it. Eventually I got on forums being a…

English is a low-hanging fruit because of the amount of quality content that is available only in English, especially tech- or science-related. I'm now learning Spanish and the main problem is finding interesting things in Spanish without forcing myself into something irrelevant. So I go for dubbed movies, TV series, listen to talk-based radio channels in background. My OS is in Spanish too, it makes many sites to sw…

Side note: my English skills are way better than my translation skills from English to Dutch or reversed.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#194

Post by Terretta »

ced wrote: post #94
cgag wrote: post #56

I think the guy from fluentforever has the general pattern down correctly: 1) learn phonetics and pronunciation 2) learn a base of of the most common words (he has a list of 625 words, I think wikipedias "simple english" word requirements would be another good source). Do this with anki. 3) start studying grammar 4) move onto native materials (while continuing with anki) I also think that most people massively underr…

Totally agree on vocabulary, it's by far the most important part. You can mostly understand and be understood without grammar. I pick comic books in the target language, that I've already read in my native language, and start making word lists. Comic books are cool because obviously the pictures help, and the story will follow a theme, so the same words will come back over and over again. And they're not so long as t…

First comic books, then children's literature. For example, for French, Asterix and Tintin, then Le Petit Nicolas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_petit_Nicolas

After that, airport novels, because the vocabulary and grammar are straightforward.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#195

Post by [deleted] »

cgag wrote: post #54
inimino wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly agree that wordlists are useless (beyond the first few hundred that you are going to see constantly anyway) and making connections is key to retaining vocabulary. Another tip is to pull vocabulary lists from reading material, and then to review them you just re-read that text until it becomes easy.

I think wordlists and learning tons of vocabulary through deliberate study are generally underrated. However, I do agree that once you've got a good foundation, pulling words from texts is a great idea. I think the ideal thing to do is to get a list of words from a text before you read it, then prime yourself on them, and then really solidify them by reading the text. I think it makes the text a lot more enjoyable. I…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#196

Post by peelle »

There are already some great answers, but here is my two cents.

> What did you do to become fluent in another language?

For me the short answer was I took classes for the beginner levels, and actively looked for opportunities to use the language. After the beginner stages I self studied, with the help of iTalki teachers, tutors, and friends that spoke my L2.

The long answer is: 1) I took courses that taught me the fundamentals. By that I mean all the sounds a language can produce, and the basics of it's writing system. 2) The course covered reading, writing, speaking, and listening. Each one reinforced the others, along with frequent testing. 3) I spent a minimum of 2 hours a day 5 days a week practicing, reviewing, and learning, my first year learning the language. 4) Once I was at an A2/B1 level, I took a 4 week intensive summer course in my L2's country. During that time I transitioned from learning about my L2 with English to talking about it and learning it using only the L2. 5) I would constantly put my self into real world situations that forced me to use my L2. For example, as a beginner one thing I did was go to a local L2 restaurant. I tried to order in my L2, and tried to understand what some of the patrons were saying. I also went to conversation exchanges, and culture meetups. There are many things you can do. 6) I didn't limit myself to what the course taught, and actively searched for things that interested me, like dubbed versions of movies I liked, or vocabulary related to my hobbies. 7) Do things that keep you motivated. For me this was reading positive blogs from people like Benny Lewis, or scheduling milestones.

I could go on and on, about specifics, like memorization techniques, or the importance of speaking as early and as often as possible, but there are tons of articles on the web about that stuff, and any language learner that looks outside their course will find them.

> How long did it take you?

There is no one size fits all answer for this. Depending on how different your target language is from your native language, and what you have defined fluent as this number can be all over the place.

Also, I find that with each language I learn, the next one becomes easier to learn. For example after learning 50 Mandarin works a week as a beginner, learning 50 Spanish works a week seemed like a cake walk, especially with all the cognates. Another example is I am learning Japanese now, and learning Kanji is a cake walk for me. First because I already learned to write characters in Mandarin, and second because most kanji that I have seen have the same or similar meaning as their Chinese counter part.

For me personally learning Mandarin. I was conversational at a very basic level after a little over a year. After two years I was comfortable with day to day conversations. Where I am at now after three years is that I can keep up with group conversations and even participate, but not yet at the same level as English.

Also, the learning is never done. There comes a point where learning becomes more passive, you pick up words naturally from a conversation or you just review a bit every once in a while, but that usually only applies to people who end up speaking their L2 all the time. Like someone who has moved to their target languages country. The rest of us still need to set aside time for practice and study, or the skill will rust.

> It seemed like you were implying a question with your first statement of being overwhelmed with choice.

Pick one and stick to it. I would suggest you find a book, software, or course, that covers reading, writing(not typing), listening and speaking. If it doesn't cover one of these and you are willing to supplement it, that's fine. Otherwise find another option. When you are deciding skim it and make sure you won't get too bored with it.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#197

Post by wingerlang »

alphydan wrote: post #125

There is no substitute for living in the country and avoiding your native speakers like the plague. Immerse yourself completely (take a few language courses, move in with locals, make an effort to avoid English speakers at all costs). Give yourself little challenges: Groceries, info about the train, museum, read a leaflet, book an activity, ask questions at a restaurant (even if you don't quite get the answer)... Peo…

> One key element is to avoid perfection. Understand that you will never speak perfect grammar for years (just like kids make silly mistakes, you will too). Embrace it, have fun, make mistakes ... enjoy the trial and error discovery and the challenge of communicating ideas with rudimentary tools. Be patient.

This is a really good point. I am learning a new language right now. I am really shy, but once I started to not care too much I already feel the difference in learning.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#198

Post by wingerlang »

ced wrote: post #94
cgag wrote: post #56

I think the guy from fluentforever has the general pattern down correctly: 1) learn phonetics and pronunciation 2) learn a base of of the most common words (he has a list of 625 words, I think wikipedias "simple english" word requirements would be another good source). Do this with anki. 3) start studying grammar 4) move onto native materials (while continuing with anki) I also think that most people massively underr…

Totally agree on vocabulary, it's by far the most important part. You can mostly understand and be understood without grammar. I pick comic books in the target language, that I've already read in my native language, and start making word lists. Comic books are cool because obviously the pictures help, and the story will follow a theme, so the same words will come back over and over again. And they're not so long as t…

I have been planning to start looking (and translating) at movie subtitles in the language I learn. My theory It should show both natural speech, common words, common sentences and so on. Thoughts on that?

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#199

Post by ced »

wingerlang wrote: post #198
ced wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree on vocabulary, it's by far the most important part. You can mostly understand and be understood without grammar. I pick comic books in the target language, that I've already read in my native language, and start making word lists. Comic books are cool because obviously the pictures help, and the story will follow a theme, so the same words will come back over and over again. And they're not so long as t…

I have been planning to start looking (and translating) at movie subtitles in the language I learn. My theory It should show both natural speech, common words, common sentences and so on. Thoughts on that?

Lots of people have learned English by watching Friends, the Simpsons, etc. You could watch movies in their original language, with English subtitles to help out. My guess is that comics are easier for your first 300 words or so.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#200

Post by wingerlang »

ced wrote: post #199
wingerlang wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been planning to start looking (and translating) at movie subtitles in the language I learn. My theory It should show both natural speech, common words, common sentences and so on. Thoughts on that?

Lots of people have learned English by watching Friends, the Simpsons, etc. You could watch movies in their original language, with English subtitles to help out. My guess is that comics are easier for your first 300 words or so.

I actually meant English movies with [language I'm learning] subtitles. Not for the listening part, but for the vocabulary + grammar part of the sentences.
Post reply on HN