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Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

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Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#181

Post by beagle3 »

scurvy wrote: post #160
walterbell wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to join when stock has low paper value, exercise the options immediately so there is no gain and no tax. Then you vest shares, rather than options, and can take them with you.

Not that many startups allow 83-b elections early on. It costs them a few $k when someone does this. It doesn't necessarily have to (it's just paper filed with the IRS by the employee), but that's what they're told and that's what they went through when they did their own 83-b paperwork. So that's what they think everyone needs to do. Honestly, there really aren't any legally required paperwork involved with 83-b, bu…

> Honestly, there really aren't any legally required paperwork involved with 83-b,

I've consulted with several good (by recommendation, and by their work on other issues) tax professionals, and each and every one stressed that without filing a 83-b election notice within 30 days of grant (and a copy with your returns) and paying the associated tax, you will NOT enjoy favorable 83-b treatment.

Do you claim they are wrong? How do you retroactively get 83-b treatment if you don't file in the first place?

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#182

Post by Klockan »

kristiandupont wrote: post #169
vinceguidry wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me awhile to realize that management is, generally, not a skilled profession. Not saying that certain skills can make you better or worse at it, but that you don't need them to be effective. In a skilled profession, not having them means all the difference. You can't wire up a house without the skills. You can't build a web app without knowing a whole lot of stuff, at least not within any time frame someone w…

What you are describing is a completely redundant role. If that was all managers were, why do companies, including smart ones, have them at all?

What do you believe that middle-lower managers do then?

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#183

Post by fluffheadsr »

knd775 wrote: post #179
fluffheadsr wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

reason number 472 to never take funding.. if your business can not be bootstrapped successfully, it's likely your business is going to never turn a profit. Funding is silly, i'd never subject any business i'm involved with to a board room full of investors that don't give a shit about me or my business and only care about PROFIT! MOAR PROFIT! blech. So glad we're bootstrapped.. we're not doing millions a month in bus…

> if your business can not be bootstrapped successfully, it's likely your business is going to never turn a profit. Funding is silly... Well, this just isn't true at all. Many companies have very high costs up front due to the nature of their business. This is especially true in hardware startups, but can also be true in software startups.

I guess, but there are so many better ways these days, if your product is worth building to get it built than to give up a huge piece of your pie. Crowd funding, etc.. if you have 10 years of R&D well you're better off just taking the idea to another company.

This is a generalization, but I think owners get their priorites mixed up when they are sitting on millions in free money.. their burn rate is insane.. they spend money on the wrong things, etc.. fancy offices, whatever, and they aren't even profitable. We work from home, and share a co-working space as well as an office with 2 other companies..

Office life is over rated and is a giant waste of startup funds. =/

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#184

Post by nostrademons »

vinceguidry wrote: post #180
Agathos wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just get the hell out of their way. That is a skill.

Not one you can learn from any textbook or 'theory of management'. That's what I meant. Just because there are skills involved doesn't make it a skilled profession. That would be like saying collecting baseball cards is a skilled profession just because it takes a certain amount of knowledge to know which ones to collect. Sure, but that's doesn't make it a skilled profession.

"Skilled profession" isn't defined by what you can learn from any textbook or theory. Just try mentoring a fresh CS grad out of MIT or Stanford - they will know all the theory and textbook algorithms, but there will still be huge gaps in their knowledge of how that translates to solving practical programming problems.

A skilled profession is one that involves skills, i.e. things you can practice at to get better in. Retail clerks and fast food workers are generally not considered skilled professions because no matter how much you practice or improve, the customer will generally not care. Management or even something like professional basketball is a skilled profession, because there are large differences in the performance of workers based on their level of experience and practice.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#185

Post by gravedave »

angersock wrote: post #116
balls187 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it acceptable for the Founder/CEO to continue leading the company at 40+ employees but not acceptable for the engineer to lead an engineering team at 40+ employees? Seems like a double standard. It is a double standard, but however it's hardly that cut and dry. Post Series B, if the board does not believe the current Founder/CEO can take the company to the next milestones of growth, they will replace them. T…

The board is just a bunch of old white dudes with money. The fuck do they know? EDIT: balls187 suggests they know how to make money--which is perhaps true, but not necessarily in your field of endeavor or business, unless you've picked them. kelnos is closer to it, which is that the board tells you what to do because they're the board and that's the power you've granted them. Again, in neither case, do we actually ne…

Are you implying that young, poor black people know better?

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#187

Post by ziles88 »

I'm going to be honest here and say you're like the best person for the job you have. The guy who got VP? He's a more qualified manager than you. The guy who does support? He's got 8 years experience and a masters degree. You? You're the best developer they have. This practice is even more common in enterprise. I worked in tech for the largest company on the planet (take a guess) and it was routine to find the best developer was as most a team lead, never management. HR strategically will shoehorn these people but cutting off their avenues for growth. In my experience however, if it's money you're after these companies will happily shell out. It's not money their trying to save, it's expertise. It will also pretty common in enterprise for guys to NOT want to be moved up. Not everyone wants to put their neck on the line, and once you move up it's impossible to move down.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#188

Post by takemikazuchi »

pm wrote: post #127
v13inc wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with leaving everyone high and dry? The CEO has no qualms about doing that to devs. If an engineer leaving puts the company in a bad spot, then they are understaffed and need better management that can foresee and handle those transitions before they happen. It's all part of proper engineering culture.

This is what happens when one person stops communicating to another due to lack of awareness; the other assumes the worst, and stops reciprocating. They are the only one who knows what's going on, yet it almost always comes down to them saying "Why should I be the first to re-establish communication?". You should do it because you're an adult, and the other person isn't a mind-reader; if you don't, you don't deserve…

I think even before you bring responsibility into the picture, there's a lot for each actor in this situation to gain from reestablishing communications(I certainly can't see what they would lose, except for face). This is assuming the other party is mature and rational though.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#189

Post by takemikazuchi »

fotoblur wrote: post #82

I see a number of posts saying that you're probably not experienced or qualified enough to hold these other positions. However, I don't think the VP of Eng, Dev Mgr, or OPS Mgr could do what you do...essentially help start and build a company from day one. Those skills you've developed don't have much value at your current company any longer. They are most likely keeping you around for historical value and once the s…

What's the financial outlook for this career path? I've always heard bad stories about early hires dealing with a below market salary(for a while) with worthless stock options. Is this a myth? It never made sense to me since I feel an early hire should make significantly more than average, since they don't have the power/equity advantage of a founder, probably have to work long hours, and a large part of the success of the company rides on their shoulders.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#190

Post by iamjoday »

If you are doing less things than you used too is typically a sign of growing company... hopefully you will have your efforts payup in a big way... best of luck!

I have always felt that working in startup is like giving a kid 10 toys to play with and taking one toy away every year. It's very normal not liking and feeling of giving up something you own but it is as important for a company to get away from generalized to specialized resources with the growth.

a senior management leader once told, his goal every year is to find, train and pass on the baton of some of his existing responsibilities to next person until he has nothing else left...

Nash, http://joday.com

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