React tooling is only getting easier, esp. considering anyone coming from the age of Webpack. The recent wave of framework innovation has been about DX by bundling things together into one cohesive experience. Also, nobody is required to keep up with the bleeding edge unless you're a framework author trying to breakout. If you don't like the marginal benefits provided by some performance story in React, then don't do…
Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
181–190 of 292 posts
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#182Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am concerned how much your posts center around you writing code and not a team. Are you concerned about maintainability? Have you written software with large teams before and have had to maintain that software over a number of years?
All good code starts with the individual. In the PHP world it starts with the collective, not much room for creativity on the assembly line, and any such attempts are met by endless debates over petty code reviews - many of which can be replaced by linters. Of course i wrote in large teams, thats why i know that a large codebase with hundreds of people working on it is usually a sign of either bad practice (the monol…
You really think you're that above everyone else? No doubts that you might be missing something?
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#184>I’ve hit a point where it just doesn’t seem like the end justifies the means in the vast majority of cases anymore I agree, but the only path forward is to change the specifications for HTML/CSS/JavaScript. As an industry we need to accept that these technologies get used to build web pages as well as software and adjust. This will remove a ton of the tooling. I think there are 3 basic things we could do to solve th…
And the follow up question, which is pointed, is: if your proposed solution would look similar to current JS solution X, why would it be better than X? Is the goal removing the build process? Increasing uniformity across the ecosystem?
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#185I don't know if this helps or hurts but I took up Elixir a few years ago and was liking it, the way the FP simplifies the scope you have to operate within and the general stability of the API that Jose has stated, i.e. it's feature complete for the foreseeable future, changes now are mostly optimizations such as pushing more into the erlang layer. Then they introduced releases which can package everything into a tar…
I've looked at Elixir a bit, but I came away with the expression that it would be a bit like doing Django before 1.7 where I had to do schema migrations manually. This is a huge deal to me. I didn't see any forms libraries either, so the forms situation seems even more primitive. I'm the author of iommi so I now have very high level abstractions for forms/tables/menus/etc, and a transparent way to compose these. I wo…
It’s a lot like Rails in that regard, where you have to model the data yourself. But it’s a part of the job — and it teaches you take advantage of the DB in ways that Django can’t.
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#186I just use Go for a self contained back end and server. For the front end I use the html templates, but for the most part it is traditional html, css, and js. No compiling js. That said, I primarily work in other areas. This is just for when I need a web app.
I'm trying to do the same. How do I make a kinda pretty frontend without much effort though
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#187>I’ve hit a point where it just doesn’t seem like the end justifies the means in the vast majority of cases anymore I agree, but the only path forward is to change the specifications for HTML/CSS/JavaScript. As an industry we need to accept that these technologies get used to build web pages as well as software and adjust. This will remove a ton of the tooling. I think there are 3 basic things we could do to solve th…
Which of the current JS frontend framework paradigms do you think should be standardised and shipped in browsers? Would you choose a React-like model, or maybe something more Svelte-like? Or something different from either of those two that I'm not aware of? And the follow up question, which is pointed, is: if your proposed solution would look similar to current JS solution X, why would it be better than X? Is the go…
>Which of the current JS frontend framework paradigms do you think should be standardised and shipped in browsers?
The basic concept of "binding" data to a DOM element and having the DOM element update when you update the data instead of having to manually update it. That's something every modern frontend framework does.
I think under the hood, the people who actually write the DOM apis would know how to do that in the most performant way possible. I know any native approach would certainly be faster than a Javascript framework. To me the more important part is getting the API surface right.
That's the big problem with a lot of these standards updates. They kind of half assedly add a feature that's inconvenient and then nobody uses it. They need to think more like "How can we incentivize people to drop X framework and do it natively?"
>if your proposed solution would look similar to current JS solution X, why would it be better than X?
It'd almost certainly be faster being built into the native code, but yes the goal is to remove the build process and tooling. But also to bring things back into balance. Right now, most web apps are a big bundle of JavaScript. But with these changes, it'd be several HTML files, JS files, CSS files. In balance again. Each technology has its own place. I think the average skillset of front-end developers would improve massively if they didn't have to do stuff like chase down NPM problems or debug Webpack.
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#188I feel your pain. My career happiness peaked around 2014 or 2015, when I was writing Rails monoliths. I felt like I could focus 100% of my energy on business logic since the framework was so opinionated and the stack was simple. Things went rapidly downhill after that, once microservices, SPAs, node.js, NoSQL, and serverless computing started becoming popular. Everything just felt like a step backward. Microservices…
I still work on a Django monolith and agree on being able to focus 100% on business logic. I've found Angular is excellent for "sprinkling" a little JS into the frontend where necessary rather than going the full SPA/React route.
If data requires reloads or manipulations a side restful api needs to be created along the main endpoint which renders html. But it's fairly straightforward with DRF and the enforced by default apps/models structure of Django.
Until a certain point I find this arrangement enjoyable to work with. Once it stops, it's clear as day that the page should be rewritten from scratch with rendering on client side.
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why does this happen? A few answers already but let me add one: Complex technologies favour seniors who are capable of understanding the complexity, over juniors who might struggle more. And it's seniors who make the decisions on what technology to use, so I think it's "rational" if they (even subconsciously) make choices which benefit them. They don't want to get replaced by cheaper juniors.
I’ve observed the opposite - less experienced devs tend to want to use more complicated and extensive/invasive tech, without understanding if it’s appropriate or what its limitations are.
Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development
#190I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…
> Why does this happen? We humans are creative creatures. When we are doing the same thing for a long time, we tend to get bored and make change happen. We 'improve' things, we move things about. We 'make things better'. So we are not bored anymore.