Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#181

Post by Blahah » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

mitjak wrote: post #157

Blahah wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, well, I can only assure you that it's basically just fine. Nobody gets hurt. It's just a thing people do - like drinking coffee or energy drinks. But it works better. In the case of amphetamine-related stimulants (ritalin, adderall, dexedrine, speed), it's easy to come off them if you aren't abusing them for pleasure as opposed to work. There's a level of use that enables effective work, and then another much h…

Interesting. Do you think the drug use is due to pressure to succeed / survive, or because you get more out of your time? Having more productive time is appealing but the idea of working 24/7 makes hanging myself appealing by comparison.

You get more out of your time, but many people want that due to pressure to succeed.

A lot of people think stimulants just keep you going longer. They do that, but for a large number of people they greatly improve working memory, problem solving and systematic reasoning.

I know students that take Adderall because their lives are so complicated that they don't have space for regular studying. So they take an Adderall the day before an exam and cram the whole semester in a day. They ace the exam and don't remember much a few weeks later. Similarly I have seen programmers (and been an example) who have a project to deliver but other stuff going on and use Ritalin or Adderall to pull the whole project out of the bag to the expected standards in a tiny fraction of the time it was predicted to take. And others who use the same to just produce much much more than their peers. And then others who just take stimulants because they think they need them but don't actually produce anything worthwhile, or just end up staying awake too much and being much less productive overall because they destroy their circadian rhythm.

I'd definitely say that if you don't feel you need them, don't take them :)

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#182

Post by Eilene » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #146

Yes. This is something that needs to be discussed. Almost every engineer is using some kind of stim in the morning and sedative in the evening. This can be as benign as caffeine/alcohol, but I've seen this escalate to any one of: caffeine, Provigil, cocaine, (meth)amphetamines on the front end, and alcohol, THC, Xanax and even ketamine on the backend. It's the only way to deal with the abusive hours. We used to joke…

I'd love to talk to you. Did this happen a long time ago, your experience(s)? or was this in the last 4 years?

Also, to reiterate, do not need to use your name, etc. Don't even need to know it to speak to you.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#183

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #182

oceanghost wrote: post #146

Yes. This is something that needs to be discussed. Almost every engineer is using some kind of stim in the morning and sedative in the evening. This can be as benign as caffeine/alcohol, but I've seen this escalate to any one of: caffeine, Provigil, cocaine, (meth)amphetamines on the front end, and alcohol, THC, Xanax and even ketamine on the backend. It's the only way to deal with the abusive hours. We used to joke…

I'd love to talk to you. Did this happen a long time ago, your experience(s)? or was this in the last 4 years? Also, to reiterate, do not need to use your name, etc. Don't even need to know it to speak to you.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#184

Post by sometimelydat » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #171

sometimelydat wrote: post #165

While working at a local Datacenter in Austin Texas(2016), I was introduced to and regularly used these performance enhancing drugs: ------------ Armodafinil Adderall 4-ACO-DMT ------------ Sleep is the foe that austinites try to vanquish; psychedelic interconnectivity its modus operandi. Community building is the endeavor of this weird little city of Austin, the future its dream.

Are you still working in the industry in Austin and do you still use this?

I moved to Oahu Hawaii, I am no longer using. I decided to slow down and start relying on sleep.

My extra ability became more of a problem for me in the work place than a blessing. The harder you work, the more that will be expected of you.

It was a fun experiment though; sleeping for 3 hours a night for a month and a half straight at one point. Forget about what 4-ACO-DMT did to me.

Sleep is good, balance is good.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#185

Post by Bartweiss » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #149

whalesalad wrote: post #5

Adderall and Cocaine. I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost to focus. I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a startup/…

This sounds kind of in line with the theory that drugs are kind of a zero-sum game. You got a lot of speed earlier on and achieved a ton, but then paid for it later on. Kind of like a, "no such thing as a free lunch" economic theory, but for drugs! Not to knock you or your methods, just an observation.

> a no such thing as a free lunch theory, but for drugs

There's some reason to believe this is literally true - and true in the same sense as the economic rule! In this context, it's been nicknamed the Algernon argument. Gwern (of course) has the canonical writeup.[1]

The short version is: "if some chemical change could make us smarter, why wouldn't it already been in place?" Or, framed differently, "why would the brain evolve to benefit from a chemical it doesn't normally have?" This argument doesn't say cognitive performance enhancement is impossible, only that there has to be some tradeoff for it or we would have evolved it already. If we're going to get rewarding "brain boosts", we need to find tradeoffs that are more appealing than they were historically.

One simple possibility is this one: we can find chemical supplements that let us rearrange when we're performing well, without net gain. Caffeine is an obvious example: it doesn't actually diminish the value of sleep, but postpones the feeling and helps us manipulate our schedules. Amphetamines might be a more extreme case of the same, 'borrowing' energy more generally and paying for it later.

The other dodges are less relevant here, but a fascinating read if you check the article.

[2] https://www.gwern.net/Drug-heuristics

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#186

Post by Blahah » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #168

Blahah wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at Cambridge for 4 years and I can safely say that none of the professors in my department were using stimulants other than coffee. I can clock someone who is up across a crowded room. None of them were ever up. A large number of the ambitious PhD students and postdocs were though, and a very large proportion of the undergraduates. I think it's probably a generational thing. Students sell to students. Nobody is…

how can you tell if someone is up? Just from years of using stimulants yourself or are there obvious, telltale signs? I missed a boatload of them with Peter.

Dilated pupils. Tense jaw. Muscles around the eyes are slightly more tense (small wrinkles temporarily disappear for example). People react faster and speak more coherently (or if they took too much, incoherently but very fast). Dry mouth (very slight lisping or tongue sticking when they talk). Straighter back, clenched fists, grasping or fidgeting hands that they don't normally have. A general appearance of alertness. Unusually impressive performance in a social situation.

Some combination of the above, but it's pretty obvious once you get used to it. At the same time, I'm pretty sure many people in my life have no idea that I take stimulants (though as I said, I don't hide it), but just see me as being at my best when I'm on them.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#187

Post by ajryan » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #11

whalesalad wrote: post #5

Adderall and Cocaine. I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost to focus. I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a startup/…

What made you decide to go cold turkey? (which sounds almost not-doable it's so tough). Did you hit some kind of wall? And would you mind commenting on what you think happens to engineers who don't use some kind of stimulant?

Suddenly ceasing stimulants does not involve nearly as acute or prolonged a withdrawal as opiates. There's no risk of seizures like there is with benzos. Your dopamine receptors will reset their tolerance much quicker than the 6 months I see cited throughout this thread. I have stopped stimulants many times with no more than a 1 week (maybe 10 day max) period of physical dependence symptoms.

When people experienced prolonged withdrawal symptoms from ceasing stimulants, I think it is usually due to being forced to confront life conditions that were being avoided.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#188

Post by fhood » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #53

fhood wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been on stimulants since they were thirteen, you still only have 6 hours of productive time. You just also have 6 hours of flailing about like a headless chicken. Sure it'll help you with mundane and routine tasks, but not with stuff that requires a ton of brain power. Edit: What I see a lot of is people who think they are super productive while churning out lines and lines of garbage.

If it feels more like flailing now than super productivity, have you stopped taking stimulants (or do you have to because of an attention issue)?

I have to. For me stimulants help me put my six hours of productivity to work. I have pretty severe ADHD.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#189

Post by sometimelydat » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #171

sometimelydat wrote: post #165

While working at a local Datacenter in Austin Texas(2016), I was introduced to and regularly used these performance enhancing drugs: ------------ Armodafinil Adderall 4-ACO-DMT ------------ Sleep is the foe that austinites try to vanquish; psychedelic interconnectivity its modus operandi. Community building is the endeavor of this weird little city of Austin, the future its dream.

Are you still working in the industry in Austin and do you still use this?

Ooh yes, I am still in the industry. I'm currently studying for my Security+ certification (experience validation) and I'm in the interview process with a local company: Network Security Manager.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#190

Post by RandomCSGeek » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

Eilene wrote: post #35

kakarot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or better, consider protecting those offering their experiences as well by using an encrypted email provider like protonmail, or offering a GPG key.

I don't know what those are, I'm sorry. I'm not in the industry (software engineering/tech) so am not familiar with those (though I know they exist). Is it something I can do in the next hour?

I'd suggest going through https://www.privacytools.io/#email. These providers won't give your data to NSA or third party companies(or at least this is more likely, than with another provider like google). Given you are asking for some sensitive data, I'd suggest you use one of these, at least for this specific project if you can't make the move completely.