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Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

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Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#171

Post by anonymousiam »

jandrese wrote: post #140
sulam wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be surprised if their CA employment agreements even have the non-compete in them, and any halfway-competent lawyer will be able to redline that portion as un-enforceable. This is a bedrock rule in CA employment. If it had any enforceability at all, we would know.

What's the punishment for companies that try to put illegal clauses in contracts? If you have the resources to fight it the clause gets nullified but that's about it. Companies aren't generally punished for abusive contracts, or at worst they get some tiny fine. As long as this is the case they will continue to try pulling crap like this.

I've never heard of any company being punished. I've been fortunate in my career and only ever signed one non-compete agreement. It was in California, and before such things had been struck down by the courts (1980). I took the time to read it before I signed, and it basically said that any invention I produce henceforth (even after my employment was terminated) would belong to Teledyne. I knew it would never stand up to scrutiny in court so I wasn't too worried about signing it.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#172

Post by d4mi3n »

belval wrote: post #101
d4mi3n wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons I'm unlikely to leave the state until other parts of the US make similar determinations. It boggles me that we allow employers to have so much control over an employees life after they have left said organization .

For all but some very egregious cases this will not be enforced. AWS lost a bunch of VP-level execs and they went to work at Microsoft... If they didn't use it against them they won't use it against anyone.

I agree, but it's still problematic. A couple concerns off the top of my head:

1. This can impact behavior of the labor force despite lack of enforcement. Not everyone can afford to pay a lawyer to review their employment contract, and not everyone will have the knowledge to know if such terms are applicable or enforceable to their situation. This causes fear and hesitancy which in turn drives behavior and decision making.

2. If you're unfortunate enough, there's nothing stopping a company from attempting to make an example out of you. Even knowing it's unlikely a former employer will come after you, why should individuals be forced to take on that risk to earn a living?

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#173

Post by kixiQu »

wnolens wrote: post #169
kixiQu wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a meaningful criticism because -- well, watch what people do, not what they say. But it isn't even coherent because you're working with an out of date list: https://amazon.jobs/en/internal/principles

I've been asked to reword my peer reviews to be a function of leadership principles only. And my promotion is justified as a function of them as well. They run very deep. I cite them on a weekly basis. The two new principles are less than a year old. They aren't taken as serious as the other originals. The culture is already established.

> And missing from this set of principles? Any mention of the humanity of those you are leading.

If you want to argue that the culture doesn't match them, whatever, but you can't say nothing's mentioned.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#174

Post by jandrese »

anonymousiam wrote: post #171
jandrese wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the punishment for companies that try to put illegal clauses in contracts? If you have the resources to fight it the clause gets nullified but that's about it. Companies aren't generally punished for abusive contracts, or at worst they get some tiny fine. As long as this is the case they will continue to try pulling crap like this.

I've never heard of any company being punished. I've been fortunate in my career and only ever signed one non-compete agreement. It was in California, and before such things had been struck down by the courts (1980). I took the time to read it before I signed, and it basically said that any invention I produce henceforth (even after my employment was terminated) would belong to Teledyne. I knew it would never stand u…

One clause I still see is the one where the company owns everything you make in off hours in your own time. It's blatant theft and yet they still try to get away with it.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#175

Post by labster »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #98
d4mi3n wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons I'm unlikely to leave the state until other parts of the US make similar determinations. It boggles me that we allow employers to have so much control over an employees life after they have left said organization .

We almost had the same in Washington state until the big tech companies lobbied (i.e. bribed) corrupt politicians for the law to only apply to those earning under $100k. https://lni.wa.gov/workers-rights/workplace-policies/Non-Com...

So non-competes are only for people who can afford a house. I guess it makes sense to give up some freedom for the privilege of owning property.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#176

Post by geoduck14 »

locusofself wrote: post #73
ozzythecat wrote: post #71

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did ea…

Thank you for this. I'm currently (today) trying to negotiate an offer with AWS and while the brand/tech is making it really tempting, Work/life balance is really important to me right now as a father of a 3 year old (the only child I am planning to have).

From one dad to another - cherish this time with your child. It goes SO fast.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#177

Post by danpalmer »

locusofself wrote: post #73
ozzythecat wrote: post #71

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did ea…

Thank you for this. I'm currently (today) trying to negotiate an offer with AWS and while the brand/tech is making it really tempting, Work/life balance is really important to me right now as a father of a 3 year old (the only child I am planning to have).

> The brand/tech is making it really tempting

Really? I’ve always felt that the Amazon brand is relatively low quality. I’ve also heard that tech-wise it’s less interesting than you might assume from the outside, and they just burn out engineers on problems rather than solving them well.

I’m relatively uninformed so don’t make a decision based on this, but maybe something to consider.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#178

Post by ozzythecat »

nickjj wrote: post #132
ozzythecat wrote: post #71

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did ea…

> I did earn enough money, but I immensely regret all the time I didn’t spend with my family over the years How many hours a week did you average at work? A lot of tech jobs will expect working 9-6. If it was over 40-45, did the money scale linearly to the hours you put in? If it was 40-45 then it's equal to most other jobs except with higher compensation?

Money does not scale linearly. It’s more of a function of the amazon stock growth. I was able to build wealth because I did the less orthodox path and held on to every share that ever vested for me starting from 2012.

But even here, the company is not generous at all. Your stock grants vest 1-2 years out. If the stock climbs during that time, then in next year, you get no additional compensation. My initial years at amazon, I received little to no compensation increase, even with multiple promotions, because the stock had climbed significantly in value.

So if they don’t give you more shares when the stock appreciates, then what happens if it doesn’t grow or declines? They try to compensate you by giving you more shares that vest over a 2 year time frame. So if the stock does good, you get screwed. If the stock performs poorly, you get screwed too.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#179

Post by Throwawayaerlei »

jwsteigerwalt wrote: post #70
rsstack wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They hope AWS won't enforce it. If you aren't very important (L7+, senior management), and you don't work on the _same exact_ project at a competitor, Amazon will probably not attempt to enforce it. Is it right that Amazon are doing this? Hell, no: they're awful for doing this. But that's not even one of the top-five awful things they do to employees.

It’s very possible you will not ultimately get the next job. Most competent firms that are near competitors will ask if you are bound by a non-compete as part of the recruiting process. Even if ultimately unenforceable, a “yes” could stop you right there. A “no” could be something problematic with the new employer down the road.

I don't think this can be emphasized enough, it's something I saw a few times in my career which was outside of California. Just having a non-compete that might apply with a former company is enough for many companies to hire someone else who's not got such entanglements. If that company is known for litigating them all the worse.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#180

Post by tomcam »

systemvoltage wrote: post #120
ozzythecat wrote: post #71

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did ea…

I've hired several AWS engineers. Everyone of them, despite of having left AWS had nothing but good things to say. You'd think that since they left AWS, they'd have a boat load of things to unload. The only gripe I heard was occassional work/life balance during launch or critical times. Otherwise, AWS/Amazon is akin to working at Intel, GE, IBM, Oracle, etc. Bog standard corporate job. You are a cog in the machine, g…

Interestingly, my experience has been the exact opposite. I live in the Seattle area and always ask Amazon tech people how they liked their tenure there. No one has said they thought it was a good decision to work there.
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