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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#171

Post by Silhouette »

mgkimsal wrote: post #136
Nursie wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised". I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT). But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"

> "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?" If you're already working in their systems and domain, you probably have a decent idea of how you can address it, even if it's outside your main area of expertise. This happens to me, and... if I'm completely unqualified, I just say "I can't do that, here's someone else who can" and make a referral/connection to some…

The most important thing is probably having that network in the first place, not just to offer referrals but to get good gigs yourself.

I know a few very experienced people who have looked into contracting or freelancing over the past year either for the first time or for the first round in many years. They have good skills and the aptitude to pick up whatever else they need, but without the broad network that comes with years of doing short term gigs, they've found the market very tough to break into. I doubt they would recognise the talk of a seller's market and ever-increasing rates that we see on sites like HN!

If you don't have that network and people actively seeking you out, you get stuck with looking via agencies (= ghosted often if you don't already have exactly the right buzzwords) or the online marketplaces (= low rates, poor quality clients and high risk of problems with the marketplace itself). And even if you do, I've seen more than one person whose whole network basically all fell apart around the same time because whole industries were hit by COVID.

Today even more than usual, it is about who you know as much as what you know.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#172

Post by viraptor »

softwaredoug wrote: post #124
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put 'payment due on receipt of invoice' right on the invoice. That's worked for me even at large companies with policies of net-30, net-60 or even net-90. I submit; the payment shows up in a week or so. Another way: give a 2% discount for payment within 30 days. Haven't met an accountant that passes up a discount.

I think this works for a small company, but large companies, that outsource their payment team, they probably don't care... They usually don't want to deal with anything weird from a vendor, or if they do, they'll screw something up with payment.

Sometimes they really don't care. My favourite is a corp which always pays on the last possible date - they managed to miscalculate holidays one day and get one of their large office buildings disconnected from the grid for non-payment - possibly offsetting all the money they gained on delays with that lost productivity.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#173

Post by nasmorn »

Nursie wrote: post #111
dominotw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor Why would i hire a self trained machine learning engineer with no experience on high day rates when I can hire someone with experience. Ppl hiring contractors don't have time or patience for you to experiment with self training on their dime, I would hire a fulltimer if i have all the time and money for ppl to learn on the job.

Again, all I can really say is "You'd be surprised". I think ML is probably different, in that it's not something that can be just 'picked up' that easily (AFAICT). But it's honestly surprised me over the years how often my clients have said "Hey, I know it's not your main area of competence, but do you reckon you could have a go at this?"

Wouldn’t we all just rather have someone competent work at our issues? It is not like most orgs can simply hire some perfectly knowledgeable superstar for their next problem. They can just spin the wheel of fortune and get someone who has the correct experience on paper. I‘d go with the person who solved my last 5 problems competently as well.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#174

Post by xwdv »

Where are people finding these high contract rates? I’d like to get out of full time employment and into contracting, but literally have no idea where to start. Relying on my own connections is useless and not sustainable, I’d like some serious work, not references to people who “need an app”.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#175

Post by tut-urut-utut »

bradstewart wrote: post #164
HumblyTossed wrote: post #87

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figur…

> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. Is a big one. I am very unsure why companies seem so reluctant to do this when the cost of hiring and training a replacement are non-negligible.

Because it works?

With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. And saving for not doing 5 to 10 percent on everyone every year are much bigger than an occasional hiring and training costs.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#176

Post by erikerikson »

Nursie wrote: post #91
dominotw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus jumping on to a new project every few months keeps the work interesting But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. eg: If you are a backend programmer, no one will hire you to work on as a machine learning engineer on day rates. This is a big myth that contractors are working on something new and…

All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly. > Companies invest in training Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.

The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. The trappings of instruction are not what makes training educational.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#178

Post by giantg2 »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #175
bradstewart wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 5. Raises that matter. Not some 1 or 2 pct insult. There's no excuse for that. None. Is a big one. I am very unsure why companies seem so reluctant to do this when the cost of hiring and training a replacement are non-negligible.

Because it works? With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. And saving for not doing 5 to 10 percent on everyone every year are much bigger than an occasional hiring and training costs.

It becomes a reason over time. The raises are less than inflation, so over time the external jobs are more appealing since those postings have to stay competitive. That's why people jump from company to company every 2 years for the pay bump.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#179

Post by Nursie »

erikerikson wrote: post #176
Nursie wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I have to say to that is "You'd be surprised", particularly when you get a reputation for picking up new things quickly. > Companies invest in training Literally never happened for me in 12 years of perm work, for large and small companies. Discounting trivial/patronising things like security training. I've self trained or picked things up as I go along a few times as a contractor, just as I did when perm.

The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out. The trappings of instruction are not what makes training educational.

> The time you use to self train is an investment by the company that you are expected to carry out.

Then contracting has been no different to perm work in that respect, for me. :shrug:

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#180

Post by jakub_g »

There are many things, but start with the basics: 1st) Tell the salary upfront; 2nd) tell the interview process (luckily it's non-bullshit and not too long).

AFAICT there are many permanent senior engineers that are happy in their jobs and couldn't care less about yet another job offer without salary info because it may seem like yet another clueless recruiter wants to lowball them and waste their time. And going through excruciating process to get 5% more is also not something that many people will do. But your offer might actually be better than what they expect, and it's a good starting point.

Also, senior engineers might actually care more about work life balance and stability than crazy high contracting rates. (Of course depends on the person).

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