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Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

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Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#171
post #52
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how would you find out if that question has been answered before? That would only work if there was single unified centralised question site. And then we are pretty much back at Google's single search field.

You don't need to. It's not a problem to ask and answer the same question repeatedly. School never had a problem with that.

School also never had navigability of past questions / answers as its explicit objective.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#172
post #97
post #43

I think Apple's current approach, where all the smarts (Machine Learning, Differential Privacy, Secure Enclave, etc.) reside on your device, not in the cloud, is the most promising. As imagined in so much sci-fi (eg. the Hosaka in Neuromancer) you build a relationship with your device which gets to know you, your habits and, most importantly in regard to search, what you mean when you search for something and what re…

>, where all the smarts [...] reside on your device, not in the cloud, is the most promising. [...] An on-device search agent could potentially be the best solution [...] Maybe I misunderstand your proposal but to me, this is not technically possible. We can think of a modern search engine as a process that reduces a raw dataset of exabytes [0] into a comprehensible result of ~5000 bytes (i.e. ~5k being the 1st page…

The smarts living on-device is not necessarily the same as the smarts executing on-device.

We already have the means to execute arbitrary code (JS) or specific database queries (SQL) on remote hosts. It's not inconceivable, to me, that my device "knowing me" could consist of building up a local database of the types of things that I want to see, and when I ask it to do a new search, it can assemble a small program which it sends to a distributed system (which hosts the actual index), runs a sophisticated and customized query program there, securely and anonymously (I hope), and then sends back the results.

Google's index isn't architected to be used that way, but I would love it if someone did build such a system.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#173
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago there was that blogs thing, with rss... all things that favoured federation, independent content generation, etc. Now it's all about platforms. I understand that "regular people" are more comfortable with Facebook but, other than that, why are blogs and forums less popular now?

The problem with forums is that you end visiting 5~10 different forums, each with their own login, and some of them might be restricted at work (not that you should visit them often). So it's easier to have 2~4 aggregators in where all the information you desire resides, even if in each of them there are different forums. A unified entry point helps adoption.

So, instead of platforms, other option would be a client software for different forums. Like Tapatalk. Is there anything like that but libre and/or desktop?

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#174

Taking a step back to before search engines were the main driver for finding content online, who remembers webrings? Is there a way to update that idea of websites deliberately recommending each other, but without having it be an upvote/like based popularity contest driven by an enormous anonymous mob? It needs to avoid both easy to manipulate crowd voting like reddit and the SEO spam attacks that PageRank has been t…

> who remembers webrings?

I recently configured openring [1] and am liking it a lot. Example of one of my pages with it [2]

[1] https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/openring

[2] https://www.jefftk.com/p/adventures-in-upstreaming scroll down to "Recent posts on blogs I like"

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#175

I see a lot of good comments here, I got inspired to write this: What if this new Internet instead of using URI based on ownership (domains that belong to someone), would rely on topic? In examples: netv2://speakers/reviews/BW netv2://news/anti-trump netv2://news/pro-trump netv2://computer/engineering/react/i-like-it netv2://computer/engineering/electron/i-dont-like-it A publisher of webpage (same html/http) would pu…

You want to silo information and create built-in information echo chambers? That seems so bad for polarization.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#176

We could always ask a different question: what would it take for everyone to have a copy of the index? Humans can only produce new text-based content at a linear rate. If storage continues to grow at an exponential rate, eventually it becomes relatively cheap to hold a copy of the index. Of course those assumptions may not be valid. Content may grow faster than linear. Content may not all be produced by humans. Stora…

Or: what would it take for everyone to have part of a copy of the index, according to their capacity / needs / etc., and for them to be able to easily search the parts of the index they don't have?

To pre-empt the "you've just described BitTorrent" comment - only in the vaguest sense; you'd need search functionality on the chunks themselves, and ideally you wouldn't have to copy (or even stream) your peers' search index chunks to search them.

I guess there's a trust / security issue here around "search index poisoning"; to resolve that, you'd probably have to lean on SSL verification and all of its attendant infrastructure for now.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#177
Yes, out of sheer necessity. Search results have become either a crapshoot when looking for commercially adjacent content due to SEO, or “gentrified” when looking for anything even remotely political, obscure, or controversial. Google used to feel like doing a text search of the internet, but it sometimes acts like an apathetic airport newsstand shopkeeper now (& with access to only the same books and magazines).

Due to this I think people will have to use site-specific searches, directories, friend recommendations, and personal knowledge-bases to discover and connect things instead of search engines.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#178
post #161
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I welcome any attempts to build a more organized internet. I don't think the communal book pile approach is scaling very well. Let me know if I misunderstand your comment but to me, this has already been tried. Yahoo's founders originally tried to "organize" the internet like a good librarian. Yahoo in 1994 was originally called, "Jerry and David's Guide to the World Wide Web" [0] with hierarchical directories to cu…

> I often see several suggestions that the alternative to Google is curated directories but I can't tell if people are unaware of the early internet's history and don't know that such an idea was already tried and how it ultimately failed. ¿Por qué no los dos? 1) The idea is that a more organized structure is easier for a librarian to index. Today, libraries still have librarians. The book pile just wouldn't take dec…

There are plenty of these, wikipedia has a list [1].

I think these efforts get bogged down in the huge amount of content out there, the impermanence of that content and also the difficulty in placing sites into ontologies.

And at the end of the day, there's not a large enough value proposition to balance the immense effort.

I think, if you were to do it today, you would want to work on / with the internet archive, so at least things that were categorized wouldn't change or disappear (as much)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_web_directories

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#179
post #84
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advertisement just should not be the central means of income of content producers. I really hope this point of view gets killed together with advertisement.

> Advertisement just should not be the central means of income of content producers. Can you propose any viable alternative?

Ads are placed via an automatic auction upon pageview. GM and Ford both want to show me an ad when I google "what car to buy", and have automatic systems that decide how much they'd be willing to pay to show me that ad based on my likelihood of purchase (income, sex, location, etc). Why not have a system that follows me around and outbids them using funds from my bank account, to show me an ad which is just a transparent image? That way I don't have to see ads but content creators still get what they need?

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#180
It was thought that one way of finding information is to ask your network (Facebook and Twitter would be examples), and then they would pass on the message and a chain of trusted sources would get the information back to you.

I am being purposefully vague because I don't think people know what an effective version of that would look like, but its worth exploring.

If you have some data you might ask questions like:

1. Can this network reveal obscure information?

2. When -- if ever -- is it more effective than indexing by words?

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