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Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

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Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#171

Post by S_Bear »

derefr wrote: post #153
_zskd wrote: post #72

I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta: >> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills? >> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be crazy…

> What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills? These jobs do exist. Data entry, library clerk, trucker, for three. These are basically asocial. Also, there are jobs where—despite being "social" in the sense of requiring collaboration—this collaboration is structured and formalized, such that you just have to "do your part" without any room for getting to know anyone. For example, line cooks, orches…

> These jobs do exist. Data entry, library clerk, trucker, for three. These are basically asocial.

I've been a librarian for 20 years. It's basically a combo of non-profit retail and fundraising. Unless you're an academic cataloger, asocial people don't last long in libraries.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#172

Post by supercanuck »

AchieveLife wrote: post #111
balfirevic wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book How do you know? To clarify, you don't know how many people you interacted with that utilized those concepts but you haven't noticed at all.

Body language and intuition. You're right, there may be times I don't notice. I have no data to prove that. IME, being in the moment and my body instead of in my head made it apparent that we aren't as clever as we think we are in social situations.

Part of his advice is to take genuine interest in other people. What you may be interpreting as insincere, is someone trying to take genuine interest but failing miserably.. hence the practice part. I have found myself in those situations to be honest.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#173

Post by S_Bear »

I was awkward and weird when I started out, but took some steps to get better. Here's what worked for me, YMMV:

1) Work retail: If you can, get a 2-4 hr a week PT retail gig, working register. Nothing forces you to get better at micro-conversations than having 20-30 short term disposable interactions.

2) Semi-follow your local sports teams. I don't watch baseball or football, but I always know how the Twins and Vikings are doing. If I' talking to someone who's really into it, I just nod along and agree with whatever point they're making about free agency, starting rotations, etc. Earns me a lot of goodwill with no actual effort on my part.

3) Know people's names and have canned responses ready. Salespeople thrive on this. Whenever I see people I acknowledge them and we have an exchange. "Hey Bill! How's life" "Another day in paradise" "At least it's not snowing, right?" Done. Goodwill up, no extra effort. The point of these conversations is to establish basic humanity to both sides.

4) Practice: It took a lot of trial and error to get good at small talk. It's going to be stilted and weird at first, but when it starts clicking it's awesome.

Bonus: Receptionists, maintenance people, and other 'para-professionals' in your building are often invisible, hear a lot of office politics, and are generally fun, down-to-earth people. If you become friendly with them, they generally keep you informed of office gossip outside of channels that are actually competing with you. And they're a lot of fun to go to sporting events with (Shoutout to Tony the Custodian!).

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#174

Post by AchieveLife »

supercanuck wrote: post #172
AchieveLife wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Body language and intuition. You're right, there may be times I don't notice. I have no data to prove that. IME, being in the moment and my body instead of in my head made it apparent that we aren't as clever as we think we are in social situations.

Part of his advice is to take genuine interest in other people. What you may be interpreting as insincere, is someone trying to take genuine interest but failing miserably.. hence the practice part. I have found myself in those situations to be honest.

It's better to be honest about not caring about a subject. Behaving naturally is sincerity.

There's always something that can be found for mutual sincerity.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#175

Post by riotinto »

spectrum101 wrote: post #92

This is a throw-away account. I have been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder and don't disclose that to the community or my employers. My advice might be helpful as people with my condition have difficulty in the workplace. A part of becoming a senior/lead developer is, in my experience, largely a social endeavor. At some point the problems one faces are not tractable for a single engineer to face alone. There i…

> One of the harder lessons to learn is how to deliver constructive criticism and feedback... I have not come across any books or courses on constructive criticism to share.

I strongly recommend the book Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen. It lays out a framework for both giving and receiving feedback.

I also recommend their earlier work Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most. In it they present a psychologically astute picture of what's really going on in conversations that make us feel uncomfortable, and they do so using examples, language and priorities of the workplace. They give very good advice for preparing for and navigating these conversations.

Here is a study guide they created for people who want to practice the book's strategies:

https://triadconsultinggroup.com/sites/default/files/Small%2...

I've actually been thinking about starting a meetup to find people to practice this stuff with.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#176

Post by sheepmullet »

copperx wrote: post #108
josephmosby wrote: post #28

Two books that really helped me were Nonviolent Communication (Marshall Rosenberg) and Radical Acceptance (Tara Brach). The specific techniques outlined in the books were helpful, but I benefited more from the mentality that you can communicate the same message in multiple tones and receive different results. Some of my colleagues have also done improv comedy courses and experienced the same outcomes. I also received…

> just assume that people mean nothing more or less than the literal words they said to you. Don't read more into it than they actually say. One of the most brilliant professors I have met fiercely preached this belief, and I can see how it can help some interpersonal relationships. But he took it to an extreme. When somebody asked him whether he thought Trump was racist, he responded "well, has Trump said that he is…

> When somebody asked him whether he thought Trump was racist, he responded "well, has Trump said that he is a racist?"

A wise response.

It is incredibly easy to smear a person in the “other” tribe.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#178

Post by clubm8 »

adrianmonk wrote: post #143
AchieveLife wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

There are people whose goal is to manipulate people. And such people are going to seek out techniques for influencing people, including this book. And such people are likely to at least be insufferably annoying if not downright untrustworthy. But that doesn't mean that someone who seeks to deal constructively and genuinely with people can't benefit from a book of observations on how people work and what does and does…

>There are people whose goal is to manipulate people. And such people are going to seek out techniques for influencing people, including this book. And such people are likely to at least be insufferably annoying if not downright untrustworthy.

If I find that my natural manner of interaction is offputting, and adopt a set of behaviors with the goal of not angering those around me is that so terrible?

Sometimes "manipulation" isn't some grand scheme to rule the world - it's just an attempt to carve out some autonomy and security in a world where overly emotional people can dictate your life.

One might argue that a coworker who will harm your career if you don't listen to them time waste and drone about their children or extorts you into social interaction (labels you "weird" or "aloof" if you won't go out after work with them) is the manipulative one - doing harm to force others to meet their emotional, non work related needs.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#179

Post by supercanuck »

AchieveLife wrote: post #174
supercanuck wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of his advice is to take genuine interest in other people. What you may be interpreting as insincere, is someone trying to take genuine interest but failing miserably.. hence the practice part. I have found myself in those situations to be honest.

It's better to be honest about not caring about a subject. Behaving naturally is sincerity. There's always something that can be found for mutual sincerity.

It isnt that they dont care about the subject, its that you care enough about the person that you try to understand why they like the subject.

Some people interpret this to mean you have to fake interest in the subject, or you have to be honest that you don’t like said subject but it can also mean you take interest in the subject simply because the subject is of interest to the person you’d like to be friends with.

Again, this a bit of a skill and takes practice

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#180

Post by logfromblammo »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #152
logfromblammo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever you want to say, "no", just substitute "it will cost more to do it that way, because.... " You will get interrupted somewhere in your explanation. When asked for a less costly alternative, pitch anything you would be interested in doing, and make that explanation more opaque to outsiders than the original technobabble. They don't really care to hear what you have to say; they just need to know that there is…

I've spent my career dealing with non-technical decision makers, so I understand where you're coming from, but this kind of cynicism and condescension is exactly what I'm talking about.

If you are being asked yes or no questions, the decision has already been reached. Politically, it is best to figure out what the decision is and then support it by whatever argument or rhetoric that seems plausible.

If the question is "can you do X?" then the important part of the conversation, defining what X is, has already taken place. You're just there to support the decision that has already been made. Sometimes your job as an employee is telling the boss what all their options are, and sometimes it is telling the boss that what they are already doing is correct.

If you are your own boss, you are necessarily one step removed from the politics. You can do your customer relationship management directly. Customers that ask "Can you do X?" without first asking "Can you help us decide what X should be for us?" can be refused, or quoted a higher price. Self-employed contracting is in some ways a wholesale rejection of politics, rather than learning how to play better. your main concern is "How do I pay my bills?" rather than "How do I avoid getting fired, and possibly get promoted?" As long as you have enough paying customers, you can more safely uphold your professional ethics.

Politics isn't about doing the right thing. It's about picking the least-wrong thing from a restricted list of bad options.

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