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Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#171

Post by dx034 »

mtanski wrote: post #130
sokoloff wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland, Singapore, Norway, Hong Kong and UAE don't match my definition of "quite small". Each of them has several million inhabitants.

The U.S has ~ 320 million people. So 2 magnitudes difference compared to some others. Additionally the U.S is quite large with many regions and sub-regions. Some regions have quite high GDP while others lower. So given that it's quite impressive versus much smaller and less populous countries. In any case it's a stretch to make an apples to apples comparison when you have 2 magnitudes of population difference.

That way you could say the US is a small country because it only has ~1/4 of the population of China.

Just because a country has a smaller population it doesn't make it unsuitable to live or to compare economic data.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#172

Post by dx034 »

closeparen wrote: post #128
acchow wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH, when making $250k+ as many engineers in top bay area companies are, "standard of living" costs don't really affect you that much anymore... They don't take into account the luxuries of the exorbitant lifestyle you can afford. And there aren't really any other cities in the world you could move to where you can still just be a programmer and afford the same lifestyle (and still have a lot of money saved up every…

As a $250k Bay Area household, you are not even starting to scratch the position of a $90k (i.e. $50k accountant + $40k teacher) household in a Midwestern metro, i.e. comfortably afford to own a 3-bedroom in a pleasant neighborhood with good public schools and a sub-30-minute commute to the central business district. The rest of the standard-of-living costs (food, toiletries, etc.) would be vanishingly small, but hou…

A $250k household in SV with children will have very significant costs of living. It won't be that hard to get a comparable lifestyle in Europe while your children are living at home. Once they're at university, most jobs in a country like Germany will give you a comparable standard of living (if you support them financially).

It's not the cost of groceries that count here, it's healthcare, education, housing and pensions that can easily consume $100-150k more per year than in a German town of comparable size.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#173

Post by dx034 »

jrmurad wrote: post #74

Everyone throwing around "free" healthcare as a valid explanation for this wage gap needs to account for taxation levels too. using estimates via Google: "average programmer salary usa" -> $84,360 "average programmer salary in sweden" -> $54,264 According to http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/10/focus-4 , average effective taxes in the USA (including social security) are 25%... but 35% in Sweden. Even…

Healthcare is not just having an insurance. It's about keeping your job/pay when your sick for a longer time, maternity/paternity leave, pensions (also if you have to quit the work force early because you can't perform your job anymore), etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#174

Post by tomcam »

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

> There are no killings in cities

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36882445

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#175

Post by atmosx »

phil21 wrote: post #135
atmosx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... You're not living in France. There are many people who would rather be making 3 times less and living in France. It is a trade off, that's all there is to it, e.g. If you, God forbid, have get into a severe health condition in the US, you might very well be making 5x more, you're still going to get broke pretty soon because social healthcare is virtually nil.

Someone making 3x (as a programmer) can very easily afford very high quality health insurance. When you have it, it actually does work. Chances are they are already covered by their employer though. The lack of "affordable" healthcare really isn't a concern for the six figure tech worker class - those salaries imply quality health insurance as part of the package.

> The lack of "affordable" healthcare really isn't a concern for the six figure tech worker class

Isn't it? Let's do the math... A leukimia treatment drug that is virtually free in most advanced European healthcare will cost virtually 0 USD/year.

In india the same drug might as far as 2.5k/year. In the USA the same drug (patent hold by Novartis) costs 70k/year.

Let's say you are living in SF. You get paid anywhere between 80 and 120k/year at a top IT company and you have to give 70k/year away: 120-70 = 50k. Are 50k/year enough to live in SF, Silicon Valley or the Bay Area?

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#176

Post by curiousphil »

atmosx wrote: post #175
phil21 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone making 3x (as a programmer) can very easily afford very high quality health insurance. When you have it, it actually does work. Chances are they are already covered by their employer though. The lack of "affordable" healthcare really isn't a concern for the six figure tech worker class - those salaries imply quality health insurance as part of the package.

> The lack of "affordable" healthcare really isn't a concern for the six figure tech worker class Isn't it? Let's do the math... A leukimia treatment drug that is virtually free in most advanced European healthcare will cost virtually 0 USD/year. In india the same drug might as far as 2.5k/year. In the USA the same drug (patent hold by Novartis) costs 70k/year. Let's say you are living in SF. You get paid anywhere be…

Generally speaking good healthcare (insurance) is going to cover the majority of the cost of the drugs for the person that has it.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#177

Post by NetStrikeForce »

bgia wrote: post #123
ThePhysicist wrote: post #37

A part of the gap can be explained by the way that work is organized in the US compared to Europe. Let's compare e.g. Germany and the USA: https://data.oecd.org/germany.htm https://data.oecd.org/united-states.htm If you scroll down to the Economic indicators, you will see that on average people in the US work around 1.700 hours a year, whereas people in Germany (and many other European countries) work only 1.400 hour…

My wage in the US is about 3 times what I'd be making home in France. 3 times. Trust me I'm not working 3 times as many hours as my friends over there. Actually it's quite the opposite.

Anecdotal data.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#178

Post by atmosx »

curiousphil wrote: post #176
atmosx wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lack of "affordable" healthcare really isn't a concern for the six figure tech worker class Isn't it? Let's do the math... A leukimia treatment drug that is virtually free in most advanced European healthcare will cost virtually 0 USD/year. In india the same drug might as far as 2.5k/year. In the USA the same drug (patent hold by Novartis) costs 70k/year. Let's say you are living in SF. You get paid anywhere be…

Generally speaking good healthcare (insurance) is going to cover the majority of the cost of the drugs for the person that has it.

To be honest I didn't take that into account but I guess you're right.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#179

Post by NetStrikeForce »

234dd57d2c8dba wrote: post #144
sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

You act like everyone in the USA has to wear body armor, has to set broken bones themselves and lives in tent cities. I have amazing dental, health, and eyecare. Free routine health checkups such as physicals, heck I even get a free gym membership. I drive a 350HP luxury sedan. Oh and I've never shot anyone, had to shoot anyone, or been the victim of a crime other than petty theft where my car was broken into one tim…

> I have amazing dental, health, and eyecare.

I do have it too, albeit the only one I pay for is the dental one - but more importantly, the barista at my favourite coffee shop has them too. At the same quality level.

> Free routine health checkups such as physicals,

My doctor calls me to get those done. They chase me! for free! but more importantly, they also chase the barista guy :)

> heck I even get a free gym membership.

Incidentally I do. I don't think the barista does. Gym fees are between £10 and £30 around here. Of course you an always splash out for David Lloyd's and pay 12x that...

> I drive a 350HP luxury sedan.

I either cycle 10 minutes or take a bus for 15 minutes. Why would I need a 350HP luxury sedan? I am already wasting money having a 170BHP Alfa Romeo hatchback parked in front of my house 24x7.

> Oh and I've never shot anyone, had to shoot anyone, or been the victim of a crime other than petty theft where my car was broken into one time.

Same here. Even better, I don't even think about it. Even better, as anyone is allowed to free healthcare there is less desperate people.

> But I do have the freedom to participate in shooting sports (and I do) whenever the heck I want

You can play shooting sports. My uncle does it regularly. Part of my family are actually hunters.

> and I don't need to ask mommy for permission.

Please, don't be disrespectful.

> If that's not high quality living standards, you must make 500k a year and be rich because I don't know what is.

Those are everyone's quality standards in great part of Europe. You are missing the point.

> I think your media has drastically altered your perception of what America is and is not.

Oh, our media - and I thought we all read TechCrunch, Gizmodo, CNN, BBC, ...

Luckily we have you to open your eyes. THANK GOD.

> Tech workers are well compensated and I'd rather be making six figures in America.

Good for you, but I am making six figures in Europe. Anecdotal data is anecdotal.

But even better, the guy not making six figures has free healthcare too.

> I'm sure your country is very nice as well, but there is not enough freedom.

I guess your freedom to play shooting sports (which you can in Europe too) is more important that your freedom to get free or affordable healthcare should you be in a rough spot.

You are privileged, I am privileged. However, I might not be who I am without free healthcare, cheap public nurseries, free quality schools, almost free universities, ... All paid by taxes of those who can, for those who can't. Remember you can be in one of those groups today and in the other tomorrow.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#180

Post by NetStrikeForce »

cylinder wrote: post #100
sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

I agree. People stop reducing your life to dollars (or €). That said, I think the USD is propped up in ways that others are not due to its status in the world. They'd an advantage for some, certainly. And Euro is weakened by rest of EU, if Germany were standalone their currency would be higher than now.

If there was no Euro, Germany would have a much harder time selling their stuff to the rest of Europe that "it's weakening the Euro".

It's on purpose, part of the plan.

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