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Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

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161–170 of 215 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#161
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will probably be interested in reading my summary in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42080682 of the things the RepRap project struggled with in the first years of the project; it explains why it took so long.

>They wasted a lot of time trying to make it work without even a heated bed, to keep costs down. I'm not trying to downplay the reprap team and their work did lead to some of the innovations in home 3d printing, but I suspect a lot of the project is like this, losing time by ignoring things that already existed and trying to reinvent things using cheap household items by going down unnecessary rabbit holes. Thank god…

That's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight! But before going down the rabbit holes, we didn't know which ones were unnecessary. If you didn't go down any of the rabbit holes, you'd end up with a US$60k machine built around US$5k ballscrews and ABS and whatnot.

The point at which people serious about making a shippable product got involved was already after it was no longer theoretical.

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#162
post #157
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3-D printers are much lower bandwidth than conventional 2-D printers, and the conventional Centronics parallel port could handle up to "75,000 characters per second", according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_port#Centronics . The total amount of data in a print is larger, but typically the 3-D printer is only processing 1–10 commands per second, compared to about 100 for a dot-matrix printer. But the point…

3D FDM printers need much higher bandwidth, because their controller need to make PWM for motors control, and for other things. Yes, one could make 3D printer without PWM, but it will be extremely slow, or even cannot do some things. With modern microcontrollers this problem resolved by using interface just for high level commands (all low level control performed by microcontroller), but on early machines used comput…

Right, you need a microcontroller in the printer to avoid having to send PWM signals over your parallel port. But they don't have to be modern microcontrollers. An 8051 or Z80 would be fine, maybe with some external chips for PWM generation.

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#163
post #162
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3D FDM printers need much higher bandwidth, because their controller need to make PWM for motors control, and for other things. Yes, one could make 3D printer without PWM, but it will be extremely slow, or even cannot do some things. With modern microcontrollers this problem resolved by using interface just for high level commands (all low level control performed by microcontroller), but on early machines used comput…

Right, you need a microcontroller in the printer to avoid having to send PWM signals over your parallel port. But they don't have to be modern microcontrollers. An 8051 or Z80 would be fine, maybe with some external chips for PWM generation.

> An 8051 or Z80 would be fine

May be. Problem is by definition of G-code, which is much more than 8bit (as I remember, there somewhere between 12bit and 18bit if consider just integer numbers, but for example diagonal lines and arcs are calculated with floats). Yes, I know, digital 8bit CPU could calculate 32bit floats or even 64bit floats, but it is slow and need additional RAM. All these calculations are much easier to do on 32bit computer.

> some external chips for PWM

Additional chips are bad for economy by definition - because size of PCB grow and because additional pins mean additional costs also. That is why first designs was dumb, without any controller at all and driven by computer - to avoid additional chips.

In modern designs microcontrollers used for convenience - so now printer could run without working computer (for example from file on flash).

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#164
post #163
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, you need a microcontroller in the printer to avoid having to send PWM signals over your parallel port. But they don't have to be modern microcontrollers. An 8051 or Z80 would be fine, maybe with some external chips for PWM generation.

> An 8051 or Z80 would be fine May be. Problem is by definition of G-code, which is much more than 8bit (as I remember, there somewhere between 12bit and 18bit if consider just integer numbers, but for example diagonal lines and arcs are calculated with floats). Yes, I know, digital 8bit CPU could calculate 32bit floats or even 64bit floats, but it is slow and need additional RAM. All these calculations are much easi…

I agree that 32-bit chips (and decent instruction sets) make everything much easier.

You wouldn't necessarily have to interpret G-code on the 8-bit microcontroller itself, although it's about the same difficulty as interpreting BASIC on it. Keep in mind that keeping the motors of a 3-D printer busy only requires a few speed changes per second, maybe 10 at most. By contrast, the 8051 in an Epson MX-80 printed about 80 characters per second and had to actuate the 9 hammers in the print head with a new set of voltages 9 times per character, for a total of about 700 deadlines per second.

When Don Lancaster was trying to figure out how to build 3-D printers and other "flutterwumpers" in the 01990s, his idea was to use a bigger computer to rasterize curves into a set of one-byte step commands that would be interpreted by an 8-bit microcontroller, for example in https://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse140.pdf, as I mentioned in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42080682. His first explanation of this concept may have been his July 01993 "Hardware Hacker" column in Electronics Now (previously in Radio Electronics and Modern Electronics) https://www.tinaja.com/glib/hack66.pdf where he's exploring the possibilities opened up by Parallax's BASIC Stamp:

> One potential use for the BASIC Stamp is shown in figure four. I’ve been doing a lot of work with the stupendously great PostScript general purpose computer language. In fact, this is the only language I use for all of my electronic design, pc layouts, stock market analysis, schematics, Book-on-demand publishing, and just about everything else.

> All the camera ready figures you have seen here in Hardware Hacker for years have been done by using nothing but my word processor and PostScript. Device independently.

> The only little problem has been that PostScript I/O tends to end up a tad on the skimpy side. Usually you only have three choices: Dirtying up otherwise clean sheets of paper or plastic; writing files to the hard disk; or returning your data back to a host for recording or other reuse.

> The BASIC Stamp can instantly let you extend the genuine Adobe Level II PostScript to any personal project or machine of your choosing!

> Assume you’ve got a homebrew machine that has an x-axis and y-axis stepper, an up/down mechanism, and a "both steppers home" sensor. This can be a vinyl signcutter, engraving, or embroidery setup. Or an automated printed circuit drill, a wooden sign router, or a Santa Claus machine.

["Santa Claus machine" was Theodore Taylor's 01978 term for a 3-D printer; it's what Lancaster consistently called them in his columns over the years.]

> You could use two of your BASIC Stamp lines for RS423 serial comm with your PostScript printer. Use two lines for both x-axis stepper phases. And two lines for those y-axis stepper phases. One line for pen or drill or whatever up/down. And a final line that zeros only when both steppers are in their home position.

> The hidden beauty here is that all of those fancier PostScript fonts and the level 2 tools immediately become available for use on your own custom homebrew rig. At unbelievably low cost. With zero royalties!

Normally when people do diagonal lines and arcs on computers without FPUs, they don't use floats; they often don't even use integer multiplies per step, but rather strength-reduced algorithms like Bresenham's algorithm and the DDA algorithm Bowyer talks a bit about in https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/interview-dr-adrian-bowy....

I agree with you that additional chips are expensive, but in the overall scheme of things, a few 555s to drive your motors aren't going to make the difference between feasibility and infeasibility.

So I think it's clear that we could have done hobby 3-D printers 40 years ago. What similar opportunities are we missing today?

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#165
post #164
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An 8051 or Z80 would be fine May be. Problem is by definition of G-code, which is much more than 8bit (as I remember, there somewhere between 12bit and 18bit if consider just integer numbers, but for example diagonal lines and arcs are calculated with floats). Yes, I know, digital 8bit CPU could calculate 32bit floats or even 64bit floats, but it is slow and need additional RAM. All these calculations are much easi…

I agree that 32-bit chips (and decent instruction sets) make everything much easier. You wouldn't necessarily have to interpret G-code on the 8-bit microcontroller itself, although it's about the same difficulty as interpreting BASIC on it. Keep in mind that keeping the motors of a 3-D printer busy only requires a few speed changes per second, maybe 10 at most. By contrast, the 8051 in an Epson MX-80 printed about 80…

> What similar opportunities are we missing today?

Something You have not done yourself or something for what You have not paid to someone else to do.

Life is complicated, it is very typical when appear opportunity but nobody use it. Because to use opportunity need 3 things:

1. The will. 2. Enough qualification (or enough IQ and time to learn). 3. Free (!!!) resources or cheap borrowed funds.

If only one thing from list is missing, it become extremely hard to use opportunity. For example, I live in Ukraine, and even without war, regulations in country are so prohibitive, that many services are not enter country or enter with severe limitations, like Paypal only enter with private accounts, but business accounts are not available in Ukraine.

Yes, You understand right, idea cost nothing, but ability to implement ideas worth billions if find fertile environment.

And yes, I spent lot of time to find ideas and I could share with You high level information on how to find (or generate) ideas. Just let me know if this theme is interest for You.

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#166
post #164
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An 8051 or Z80 would be fine May be. Problem is by definition of G-code, which is much more than 8bit (as I remember, there somewhere between 12bit and 18bit if consider just integer numbers, but for example diagonal lines and arcs are calculated with floats). Yes, I know, digital 8bit CPU could calculate 32bit floats or even 64bit floats, but it is slow and need additional RAM. All these calculations are much easi…

I agree that 32-bit chips (and decent instruction sets) make everything much easier. You wouldn't necessarily have to interpret G-code on the 8-bit microcontroller itself, although it's about the same difficulty as interpreting BASIC on it. Keep in mind that keeping the motors of a 3-D printer busy only requires a few speed changes per second, maybe 10 at most. By contrast, the 8051 in an Epson MX-80 printed about 80…

> a few 555s to drive your motors aren't going to make the difference between feasibility and infeasibility

It depends on current market of considered niche. For some cases, market price is so low, every additional hole or trace on PCB could kill economy; for others, could include something like SGI or Cray as controller (mean, something severe overpriced) and it will be still profitable.

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#167
post #71

It took that long because nobody was working on it, because it wasn't obvious that a low-cost 3-D printer was feasible. The 3-D printers you're seeing today are basically the series of RepRap designs, named after famous scientists who studied self-reproduction: Darwin, Mendel, and Huxley. The RepRap project, which started in 02005, is the reason this happened. For the first several years, it was about half a dozen pe…

> Journalists like to talk about the patents, maybe because they're legible to nontechnical people

Journalists usually repeat what said experts, unfortunately, not always include enough context to understand.

Patents context is global West, where patents are extremely powerful, so nobody could violate patent and make business on this. And as I know, in many cases people scared even to talk about something patented, and to do something scared like from hell.

On global East (example ex-USSR), patents are mostly harmless, but also don't exist all other economy infrastructure, need to make big things (I mean free market, open borders, powerful VC funds, powerful industry).

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#168

Micro-stepping controller chips. Before that, the precision available without gearing and feedback wasn't sufficient. There were systems but they were order of magnitude more complicated and several orders more expensive.

Microstepping mostly is just to reduce noise and vibrations.

The motors tend to fall to the nearest full step when loaded hard. Most people I have discussed this with believe there is little resolution gain (if any) past 4x microstepping but it certainly is a lot quieter to use x256.

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#169
1. Patents 2. Cheap CAD 3. Arduino (IMHO...before this it wasn't easy to interface to USB/PC for anyone who wasn't EE) 4. Surge of DIY online (Forums, mailing lists, instructables, pinterest) 5. Reprap leading the way with recycled parts as well as cheap imported motors and controllers. 6. Lack of interest- Machinists could usually do the same thing but better using subtractive. Additive was seen as "useless" for real world items even after reprap.

There are probably a couple other things I am missing...and what order you place my list probably doesn't matter. It took everything at once happening.

Re: Ask HN: Why did consumer 3D printing take so long to be invented?

#170
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's a reason. PLA and ABS were invented before the 1990's. What was this self-destructing material, and why?

A surprising number of popular plastics are chemically unstable to one or another extent.

But not 3 days! That sounds like food or ballistic gel, which is also food, I guess.
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