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Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

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161–170 of 321 posts

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#161

It depends what you think the goal is, AGI or making a ton of money. OpenAI doesn't seem that close to AGI. But in terms of value creation they have turned numerous industries and jobs on their head. Things like copywriting or how they are destroying stackoverflow and quora. The next lowest fruit they are disrupting is front line chat/email support - this is usually never part of a core product but the market is mass…

To me the simplest analog is Amazon Prime. Bezos wants Prime to be something you can't afford to skip by having it deliver overwhelming value, and to that end they've done pretty well: 70% of Americans have Prime.

But since software scales so ridiculously well, that their cloud offering still manages to beat it on profit.

OpenAI had just landed a new class of subscription that scales like AWS, has B2B hooks like AWS, can be the engine behind entire classes of future unicorns like AWS... but then also has widespread consumer value and brand recognition like Prime.

By that measure it's hard not to be bullish.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#162
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to give a specific example of a problem it helped you solve? Especially one that you were at a complete blocking point, it provided some solution, and then you were able to continue to expand upon that solution. I keep reading responses like yours, but I haven't seen any specific examples of problems being solved, so it all sounds very abstract. In my interactions with ChatGPT, it felt like just interact…

Not that I'm trying to change your mind, but some specific things that LLMs do for me: - Helping to refactor SQL - writing jq commands (I simply cannot) - writing shell code (it happens just infrequently enough that I can't justify spending the time to get good) - brainstorming names or puns. Word association is easier with a second person (or an LLM) - figuring out why my AWS CLI commands aren't doing what I'm expec…

This is just helping out with trivial tasks, which sounds very much in scope of LLMs. The OP was talking about replacing "world class consultants", which I'm very sceptical of.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#163
You're 30% correct but not seeing the value. I used to Google every 20 mins. Now it's a few times a week. All questions are answered in seconds and extremely precisely.

I write low-level AI code and it's like speaking to someone that just understands what I'm saying without having to explain every 2 minutes.

This has massively augmented my workflow.

On the topic of AGI. We'll get there in your lifetime. I can see how and why. The new bar is ASI so consider AGI the current goal-post. We have all the pieces, we're just putting them together ;)

If you want to check out what I'm up to I have a front-end here: https://discord.gg/8FhbHfNp

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#164
As a delivery consultant in a Generative AI specialty practice for an extremely large cloud services consultancy, I can say with certainty that failure to achieve results with the latest models is definitely more of a reflection of the abilities of the user, and much less the abilities of the model.

A lot of people look at LLMs through the same lens that they have looked at all other technology to this point — that if you learn and master the interface to the technology, then this eventually equates to mastering the technology itself. This is normalizing in the sense that there is a finite and perceptible floor and ceiling to mastering an objective technology that democratizes both its mastery and use in productivity.

But interacting with LLMs that are in the class of higher-reasoning agents does not follow the same pattern of mastery. The user’s prompts are embedded into a high-dimensional space that is, for all intents and purposes, infinitely multi-faceted and it requires a significant knack for abstract thought in order to even begin the journey of understanding how to craft a prompt that is ideal for the current problem space. It also requires having a good intuition for managing one’s own expectations around what LLMs are excellent at, what they perform marginally at, and what they can fail miserably at.

Users with backgrounds in humanities, language arts, philosophy and a host of other liberal arts — while maintaining a good handle on empirical logic and reason, are the users who consistently excel and continue to unlock and discover new capabilities in their LLM workflows.

I’ve used LLMs to solve particularly hairy DevOps problems. I’ve used them to refactor and modularize complicated procedural prototype code. I’ve used them to assist me in developing UX strategy on multimillion dollar accounts. I’ve also used them to teach myself mycology and scale up a small home lab.

When it comes to highly-objective and logical tasks, such as the development of source code, they perform fairly well, and if you can figure out the tricks to managing the context window, many hours of banging head against desk or even weeping and gnashing of teeth can be saved.

When it comes to more subjective tasks, I’ve discovered that it’s better to switch gears and expect something a little different from your workflow. As a UX design assistant, it’s better for comprehensive abstract thinking, identifying gaps, looking around corners, guiding one’s own thoughts and generally being a “living notebook”.

It’s very easy for people who lack any personal or educational development in the liberal arts or the affinity for and abilities of abstract thought to type some half-cocked pathetic prompt into the text area, fire it off and blame the model. In this way, the LLM has acted as sort of a mirror, highlighting their ignorance, metaphorically tapping its foot waiting for them to get their shit together. Their lament is a form of denial.

The coming age will separate the wheat from the chaff.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#165
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(I personally don't mind coding boilerplate stuff, especially since I can learn how the framework works that way)" ^ Isn't that what folks used to say about programming in assembler? How much time do I want to spend learning frameworks (beyond what I already know) vs. how productive do I want to be?

I fully sympathise with this analogy and I think I have used it before myself. But there is a tremendous difference in practice. A compiler doesn’t produce randomly different code each time you run it, while an LLM, no matter how good will. At which point if something breaks, you have to take the reins.

Note that openai added the "seed" parameter to get deterministic results in the last release.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#166
post #36

OpenAI, at least in my day-day workflow for the last 9+ months has so superseded anything that google ever was to me that I'm having a difficult time comparing the two. I've got a monitor dedicated 100% of the time to ChatGPT, and I interact with it non stop during the flow of technical scenarios and troubleshooting situations that flow into me - working in areas that I have the slimmest of backgrounds in, and shutti…

Are you able to give a specific example of a problem it helped you solve? Especially one that you were at a complete blocking point, it provided some solution, and then you were able to continue to expand upon that solution. I keep reading responses like yours, but I haven't seen any specific examples of problems being solved, so it all sounds very abstract. In my interactions with ChatGPT, it felt like just interact…

Yeah I've been down the exact same paths as you. You're spot on, it's a statistical merge and "RAG" is literally "filter the probabilities and change the odds".

The main argument is that you can give it a block of real-world data like an email or code and take advantage of collective knowledge to identify outliers like bugs, bad grammar or incoherent writing which translates exactly to code semantics too.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is at once nothing “wrong” with this response, and it is ridiculous. It is not a question — which without considerable pre-hedging — a person could consider seriously and most would assume an alternative hypothesis for why it is being asked.

Pasting huge prompts into HN comments is really irritating. Make whatever point you’re trying to make without doing that. It indeed does tend to assume that you’re speaking hypothetically and for a potentially fictional purpose. Which is a better approach, as far as I’m concerned. I prefer that to it constantly being a nanny that questions everything.

That wasn’t my point. Let me try again.

I’ve been writing lots of Prolog recently and asking ChatGPT questions. Many of my questions have been sincere but a bit like the bear trainer — ridiculous for someone who knows what they are doing. Meanwhile ChatGPT will answer it as if the premise is valid. The answer is valid sounding nonsense, which may lead you on a wild goose chase — a bit like the aspiring space bear trainer.

It isn’t assuming that I’m asking from a “hypothetical and for a potentially fictional purpose”. If GPT is in effect a conditional probability distribution over tokens, it isn’t “assuming” at all.

This IMO is a clear challenge to sense making for ChatGPT which is not obviously fixable through fine tuning. I don’t think factfulness is either because low contrast examples are hard to train for, especially if they are compounds of true things . Eg “tell me about logic regression”

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#168
A helpful perspective for anyone working with this tech: The LLMs "know" things as a side effect of teaching them to speak - more value comes from using this as a basis to augment a solution like completing code grounded in documentation.

In other words, don't rely on the LLM by itself, it just happens to be able to remember most information as a side effect of its learning. Most important is the ability of these systems to transform knowledge and data when appropriate. Don't use it to read CSV's for example.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pasting huge prompts into HN comments is really irritating. Make whatever point you’re trying to make without doing that. It indeed does tend to assume that you’re speaking hypothetically and for a potentially fictional purpose. Which is a better approach, as far as I’m concerned. I prefer that to it constantly being a nanny that questions everything.

That wasn’t my point. Let me try again. I’ve been writing lots of Prolog recently and asking ChatGPT questions. Many of my questions have been sincere but a bit like the bear trainer — ridiculous for someone who knows what they are doing. Meanwhile ChatGPT will answer it as if the premise is valid. The answer is valid sounding nonsense, which may lead you on a wild goose chase — a bit like the aspiring space bear tra…

In my experience, if you just tell it to do something first, (e.g., "before answering this question, tell me if it makes logical sense") it'll generally do it. Giving it a one sentence, vague prompt isn't going to be useful regardless.

The fine-tuning aspect I meant was mostly about factual data being incorrect.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone else bearish on OpenAI?

#170
post #36

OpenAI, at least in my day-day workflow for the last 9+ months has so superseded anything that google ever was to me that I'm having a difficult time comparing the two. I've got a monitor dedicated 100% of the time to ChatGPT, and I interact with it non stop during the flow of technical scenarios and troubleshooting situations that flow into me - working in areas that I have the slimmest of backgrounds in, and shutti…

Are you able to give a specific example of a problem it helped you solve? Especially one that you were at a complete blocking point, it provided some solution, and then you were able to continue to expand upon that solution. I keep reading responses like yours, but I haven't seen any specific examples of problems being solved, so it all sounds very abstract. In my interactions with ChatGPT, it felt like just interact…

I had to implement a relatively simple auth flow recently for an app (something I haven’t done in the past). Gpt3.5 struggled to give me anything useful other than high level ideas but GPT4 gave me the exact boilerplate I needed and unblocked me.

I had searched all over the web for an example addressing my specific use case on google and couldn’t find one. GPT4 produced a working example for me and got me past that road block. I also use it regularly to suggest better coding patterns and I find it does a really good job at doing code reviews for obvious mistakes / anti-patterns

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