Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#161

Post by foobarbazetc » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

belter wrote: post #104

foobarbazetc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers, like any other profession, are 95% incompetent. Finding the 5% that are competent is harder than it looks. And the hourly rate and/or physical location of said lawyer bares no correlation to competence level. And once you find that person they usually get scooped up and become GC for some VC funded startup or whatever because word travels.

Agree. The same applies by the way, to International Tax Advisers and specially if you are doing business across several countries in EU. I paid 200 to 300 dollars per hour for International Tax Consultants, that were unable to understand the most common cross country tax scenarios, like "triangular taxation". At the same time, very cheap and experienced "regular accountants" provided, clear, concise and correct advi…

Also yes to good accountants.

A lot of things you can pay a lawyer for business/tax/etc wise, your accountant can probably do better and cheaper.

Accountants are under-appreciated. lol.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#162

Post by slashdev » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

kkielhofner wrote: post #97

eloff wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly if a competitor came to me for help with a patent troll who'd previously targeted me, I'd bend over backwards to assist. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

As I've noted in other comments many people see business as war. There are good examples in business but the history of war has even better examples. Time and time again "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" can work until one enemy is vanquished. In WW2 Stalin initially made a pact with Hitler while all the while knowing Hitler would violate it and invade anyway. Stalin just used it to buy time to ramp up the Soviet…

> Time and time again "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" can work until one enemy is vanquished.

That is partly true, but in this case the patent troll is not vanquished and so doesn't apply.

Often competition is not that cutthroat. It's not usually a zero sum game. There are definitely outcomes where your competitors even add net value by legitimizing the market, educating potential customers, providing a source of ideas, etc. My general philosophy here is the world is big enough for all of us, I don't treat it as war, and don't seek to crush competitors - I seek to make my users and employees happy. That's it. Being competitor focused is an error, at least in a high margin business.

> In WW2 Stalin initially made a pact with Hitler while all the while knowing Hitler would violate it and invade anyway.

By accounts I've seen, Stalin was genuinely surprised and caught off guard by the invasion.

Not sure how this thread turned to Hitler so quickly. What's that internet law called?

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#163

Post by pnw » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

kkielhofner wrote: post #57

jblake wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I have not personally been served, I found out about it via emails from two different patent attorney firms offering their services, with the lawsuit attached as a courtesy. The lawsuit looks legit to me. I live in Tahoe so don't get mail but will check today and also check with my registered agent in Reno. Can you recommend me a patent attorney? Any idea on how much this could cost?

Wow, that's a (really sleazy) angle I haven't heard of before. I wouldn't respond (at all) to any unsolicited e-mails from random groups offering their "services" in this matter. This sounds almost like a patent version of the car warranty scam - "Warning - this is our last notice. You may be responsible for all repairs!" Yeah, ok... Unfortunately the patent attorneys I've worked with are in very large international…

It's not uncommon, it's happened to me twice.

Basically an NPE files a lot of lawsuits at once, legal companies are monitoring the lawsuits and will proactively reach out to potential customers.

In my case the firms that reached out were mostly tier one national law firms and they were very familiar with the NPE. And like the OP I was unaware of the lawsuit because they served our corporate agent in Delaware. So it was quite useful.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#164

Post by pnw » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

I've been through this multiple times. Plenty of good advice here about getting lawyers and getting your industry together to fight the suit in a joint action.

Having said and tried all that personally, I've usually got my lawyer to negotiate it down to a smaller sum of a few thousand dollars and paid it. It simply wasn't worth paying orders of magnitude more than that for a legal process in which the outcome was unsure and that would take years.

Did I like it? Hell no but it was the best possible outcome at the time.

The secret to a good negotiation is getting your lawyers to call them and basically plead poverty. If you don't have substantial revenue or assets in your corporation, the NPE isn't dumb enough to keep spending time chasing you. In my case they were suing massive multinational corporations and also tiny startups with the same sized lawsuit.

The NPE are usually some random inventor who sold their 90's era patent to some shitty lawyers, with an equally random person trying to 'negotiate' the settlements. It's better to let your lawyers deal with them than getting your hands dirty yourself.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#165

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #132

foobarbazetc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers, like any other profession, are 95% incompetent. Finding the 5% that are competent is harder than it looks. And the hourly rate and/or physical location of said lawyer bares no correlation to competence level. And once you find that person they usually get scooped up and become GC for some VC funded startup or whatever because word travels.

Are you saying that carpenters, electricians, pumblers, builders, cobblers, taxi drivers, nurses, and public school teachers are 95% incompetant? If so, please kindly provide anecdata. This is a positively ridiculous acusation.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#166

Post by erik998 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

major505 wrote: post #108

Andrew_Russell wrote: post #44

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

I'm curious. Can you counter sue a company like that? Since they do affect productive companies, that must be some law against that...

lotnet.com Lawsuits from Patent Assertion Entities (PAEs, sometimes called “patent trolls”) can be a drain on resources for any company. With software a primary PAE target, and software becoming an integral part of all industries — putting nearly all companies at risk of being sued.

That’s why leading companies have come together to form a collaborative, voluntary community to reduce this risk – one that grows in importance as the economic environment becomes increasingly uncertain.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#167

Post by pnw » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

relaunched wrote: post #137

admissionsguy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, why is it expensive? Is it similar to the process of getting the patent itself where most companies pay $$$ for lawyers, but a determined technical (and legally literate) person can do it themselves with not that much effort (like I did)? Or is there some sort of gatekeeping or statutory fees that must be paid?

It's more expensive than getting a patent, which you can do yourself. Courts have procedures, and it many juris dictions, they require you to be represented by an attorney. While I'm not an attorney, I've been the the process enough to know a few of the steps: 1) demand letter(s) and responses 2) negotiations, w/o a mediator 3) drafting and filing of the complaint 4) motions w/ responses 5) negotiations w/ a mediator…

In my most recent case, we settled the patent lawsuit for approximately 10% of the estimated cost to litigate, which was well into six figures.

If we had chosen to litigate, it would have taken years, been very stressful and possibly created issues with future company financings etc.

And even if we had won - the NPE has zero assets to attach so you always bear the legal cost.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#168

Post by shmerl » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #146

shmerl wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think it should be a law against racketeering (something like RICO). Some tried to use that against patent trolls, but it didn't work.

As long as the patent is valid there is nothing racketeering about it.

You can assume in the vast majority of cases patent trolls don't have valid patents. And if even if they are "valid", the patent system is so messed up, that they have to be invalid in reality.

Trolls' method is exactly racketeering because it's extorting money using threat tactics. "You don't want something worse happening to you? Better pay up XYZ amount!". It's not going get much more classic protection racket than that. Except they threaten not with beating you up, but with you spending millions on court cases. I'd say trolls getting jail time for this garbage should be a good medicine for them.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#169

Post by gnulinux » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

kian wrote: post #152

bitwize wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To "ghost" someone is to avoid them without a response. The term probably came from personal relationships (e.g., a woman you were dating starts "ghosting" you). It was previously considered rude but is now appropriate to avoid potentially toxic personal or professional relationships.

Pretty sure it's still considered rude.

I have never met a single person in my life who didn't ghost multiple people especially in business and dating. Like I receive 10 messages from LinkedIn everyday from recruiters trying to hire me when I'm not on the job market and trying to focus on my job and hobbies. What am I supposed to do?

It's clearly rude to ghost friends, acquaintances, business partners etc. But if someone reached out to you with the intention of doing business with you, I think it's ok to ghost them if you're 100% not interested. Am I wrong?

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#170

Post by fencepost » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #64

dmabram wrote: post #33

I've been through similar situations. The "find a lawyer" comments are less than helpful, since you probably don't know where to begin and most lawyers will happily take your money without necessarily having an expedient path to resolution for a small one-person company. So here's what you do: Write to each of your competitors, explain the situation and ask for a referral to their lawyers. You'd be surprised how many…

I understand how 'find a lawyer' is less than helpful but isn't your advice just 'find a lawyer ... that your competitors suggest'. Competitors who by default do not have your best interests in mind. Is there any real difference / likelihood of a good outcome there? Ultimately I see little difference in the potential of "most lawyers will happily take your money without necessarily having an expedient path to resolut…

isn't your advice just 'find a lawyer ... that your competitors suggest'. Competitors who by default do not have your best interests in mind.

Just because you're nominally competitors serving the same market doesn't mean you can't work nicely together. In many cases the true competition is 'people who don't understand how much they need our products.'