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Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

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Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#161

Post by DennisP »

decafninja wrote: post #147
asdff wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla isn't competing against an electric car, though, it's competing against the upper middle class consumer's gas car. Against this car, probably a lexus or 3 series thereabouts, the Tesla is not a good bargain unless you are interested in having an electric car for the sake of that alone. It being some green choice itself is dubious, considering how much gas and coal is still used in the electric grid and how this…

I agree with this. Most people looking at say, a Model 3, are not cross shopping it vs. say, a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf. Seems like they are more cross shopping vs. a BMW 3 series or Benz C class.

Yes but my point was, the range/recharging situation is a differentiator from other electrics for now, and reasonably practical, while acceleration far exceeds most gasoline cars in its price range.

From a quick google, the fastest BMW 3-series is the 330i, at 5.3 seconds 0-60. The M240i xDrive does 4.2 seconds. For a few thousand more, the Model 3 Performance does 3.1.

Tesla's instant response is another fun advantage, and reviews have been very positive on Model 3 handling. The bottom line is, it's a fun car and people like it. It's not just virtue/status signaling and environmentalism.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#162

Post by Ekaros »

baybal2 wrote: post #38

> What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles? I'm afraid there will be none. Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other. Mechanically, they are all very, very simple. Simpler than any IC car. Compact wishbone suspension is used on pretty much every one of them, since all EVs are city cars, and you want as much space for batteries as possible, an…

Even with ICEs we kinda are there already. Surprisingly many cars are mostly same underneath, but hull, interior etc. are different. I don't see why same won't apply to EVs.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#163

Post by pasttense01 »

neogodless wrote: post #71
at_a_remove wrote: post #64

I think that you can take all of the differentiators that exist for ICE vehicles (price, reliability, status ...) and then add in some new factors: 1) Range anxiety 2) Recharge concerns (plays into range anxiety) 3) Novel technology fears (will my trusted mechanic of twenty years be able to handle this or am I stuck with the dealership?) 4) "Handling" -- will this drive like my old ICE car? Apparently a major irritat…

#2 (and #1) is really important, even if it shouldn't be. When you buy a car, you're plunking down $40,000 (apparently[0]!) and trying to cover every use case you're going to have over the next 5 years. So that trip you make to the beach once each summer, or visiting grandma on her half-mile dirt lane, or the one time you get caught at work when it's snowing too heavily for the plows to keep up... you need 350 mile r…

Mostly true for one car households, but with multiple car households you only need to be sure that one of the cars will cover a rare use case.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#164

Post by elihu »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #133
at_a_remove wrote: post #64

I think that you can take all of the differentiators that exist for ICE vehicles (price, reliability, status ...) and then add in some new factors: 1) Range anxiety 2) Recharge concerns (plays into range anxiety) 3) Novel technology fears (will my trusted mechanic of twenty years be able to handle this or am I stuck with the dealership?) 4) "Handling" -- will this drive like my old ICE car? Apparently a major irritat…

Re: #3 - handle what? Changing the oil? Replacing the clutch. Dealing with the camshaft gears shredding and destroying engine? Fixing any part of the gear box? Of the automatic gearbox? My belt tensioner isn't. The clutch on my ac is broken. My powersteering hydraulic line came loose and sprayed all over the road. My power steering pump needs replacing (a month after the fluid got dumped). Piston ring blown. Cylinder…

EVs can potentially be very low maintenance, but they're still machines with parts that will wear out or break eventually if driven far enough: bearings, cv joints, suspension components, electric power steering units, etc... Plus all the little accessories that aren't part of the drivetrain or steering/suspension/brakes but might cause problems if they break, like motorized door handles or flash memory chips that have been written to too many times, or whatever.

Being able to get access to the parts and information necessary to fix things can make a lot of difference when things fail and the warrantee is expired. This is basically the "right to repair" issue. Some people care about it a lot and some people don't.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#165

Post by decafninja »

DennisP wrote: post #161
decafninja wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. Most people looking at say, a Model 3, are not cross shopping it vs. say, a Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf. Seems like they are more cross shopping vs. a BMW 3 series or Benz C class.

Yes but my point was, the range/recharging situation is a differentiator from other electrics for now, and reasonably practical, while acceleration far exceeds most gasoline cars in its price range. From a quick google, the fastest BMW 3-series is the 330i, at 5.3 seconds 0-60. The M240i xDrive does 4.2 seconds. For a few thousand more, the Model 3 Performance does 3.1. Tesla's instant response is another fun advanta…

Completely agree with that too.

Not to nitpick, but the fastest non-M 3 series is the M340, which has been tested to 3.8s 0-60 and can probably be leased for about the same as a Model 3 Performance. Disclaimer: it's my current daily driver.

The M3 is the more interesting comparison, and Elon specifically had the older one in his crosshairs vs. the Model 3 Performance trim. Based on various Youtube videos, the pre 2021 Model 3P seems to beat or match most of its competitors in various metrics at a significantly lower price. Would be interesting how the post 2021 Model 3P compares against the new hog-nosed BMW M3 and the upcoming 4cyl+electricmotor C63 AMG.

I'm actually scheduled to test drive a Model 3 this weekend so I'm curious how it will feel vs. the M340. I've never driven an EV before.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#166

Post by elihu »

schwartzworld wrote: post #12
pmorici wrote: post #6

At least in the next decade people are going to care about range, charge speed (measured in miles per hour, in part a measure of efficiency) and software quality. So called super car brands will pivot to market on subjective qualities like “handling” since they can no longer complete on performance.

Range could be less of an issue if charge speed is fast enough.

In the long run, range could be less of an issue if we had electrified roads that allow the cars to charge while moving at freeway speeds.

(This isn't needed for all roads, just the major highways and interstates, since those are the roads where people typically are driving long distance.)

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#167

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

baybal2 wrote: post #53
lastofthemojito wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other. That seems like a strange thing to say. We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel. There's about an order of magnitude difference…

> We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel. This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer. There is not much differentiation besides linear cost/performance progression. Motor…

> This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer.

Am I understanding your statement correctly? Are you implying that FWD/RWD/AWD doesn't matter for an EV? Because from a handling and safety perspective, it matters just as much in an EV as it does in an ICE.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#168

Post by DennisP »

decafninja wrote: post #165
DennisP wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but my point was, the range/recharging situation is a differentiator from other electrics for now, and reasonably practical, while acceleration far exceeds most gasoline cars in its price range. From a quick google, the fastest BMW 3-series is the 330i, at 5.3 seconds 0-60. The M240i xDrive does 4.2 seconds. For a few thousand more, the Model 3 Performance does 3.1. Tesla's instant response is another fun advanta…

Completely agree with that too. Not to nitpick, but the fastest non-M 3 series is the M340, which has been tested to 3.8s 0-60 and can probably be leased for about the same as a Model 3 Performance. Disclaimer: it's my current daily driver. The M3 is the more interesting comparison, and Elon specifically had the older one in his crosshairs vs. the Model 3 Performance trim. Based on various Youtube videos, the pre 202…

Apparently a quick google is less reliable than direct experience :)

I'd be curious to see your impressions after your test drive.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#169

Post by JoeAltmaier »

maratc wrote: post #141

The futurologists think that most people would just stop buying cars altogether. Once there is a self-driving (electric) car that you can order from your phone and that will — cheaply! — take you from point A to point B, the need in owning a car will (mostly) disappear. The people would stop being car buyers. Instead, robo-taxi companies will buy most of the cars. For these, there would be no need in brands or market…

That puts a double burden on infrastructure. Every car trip becomes 2 trips - one to your house, then one to your destination. It's hard to imagine that winning over car ownership, without some other powerful force involved.
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