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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#161

Post by xur17 »

foogazi wrote: post #59
jonex wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden a significant portion of tech workers are unionized. It doesn't work well for creating leverage in term of wages though. If anything, the impression I got at my last job where I was in the union was that the union negotiations mostly created an excuse for not increasing individual pay. "Sure, you perform really great and all, but if we give you more we'll have to reduce pay for someone else based on the agr…

>”Sure, you perform really great and all, but if we give you more we'll have to reduce pay for someone else based on the agreed upon average increase." You do give up some agency by going through intermediaries. Good thing you are not forced to stay

One of the reasons I personally don't want tech industry unions.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#162

Post by trcollinson »

marcinzm wrote: post #98
trcollinson wrote: post #3

Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Germany. They do make markedly less than I do on my US salary. However, they also get: * Substantially more actual vacation time * Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage * Less risk/stress associated with job security * A very s…

>* Substantially more actual vacation time This depends on the company, last startup I worked at gave me around 6 weeks of vacation per year not counting holidays. Of course I got paid less than FAANG but still better than Europe even without the equity. >* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage I have heard a lot of people in Europe (UK and Germany) complain about issues with getti…

I guess my point on vacation is more around the culture of using it. As a senior level engineer/architect with maybe a small team leading role, when was the last time you took a solid 2 week off without anyone calling you for work? Heck, look at the number of unlimited PTO companies out there where employees never take a day. Just as an example.

The experience my friends have in the EU seems to be pretty good over all with healthcare. The US healthcare system give fantastic results at a phenomenal and often strange price. It's a trade-off I'm sure.

I agree that having savings helps. And I have quite a bit of savings. But I still wouldn't feel comfortable being laid off .

Over all I'm here in the US and I love it. But I'm pointing out that there is give and take to everywhere.

Also everyone keeps talking about working for FAANG but.... The vast majority of US engineers don't work for them.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#163

Post by coliveira »

hogFeast wrote: post #136
betaby wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call Canadian (or Fr or Se) wealth inequality 'low'. 'Why I can't afford a house', again is more a problem in Fr/De/Se than in US, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

I don't know about the other countries you have mentioned but German residential real estate has very high levels of institutional investment and the legacy of rent control (famously, Berlin...although that changed a few years ago). So you have very high wealth inequality, average German net financial wealth is equal to Greece and Germany has a significant number of billionaires, but you also have a system that funda…

> more dynamic economy that results in more people actually becoming wealthy

This is exactly the other side of inequality: if there is a big gap, someone must be taking advantage of this gap. The problem is that most people are losers in this competition.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#164

Post by jldugger »

ingvul wrote: post #16
ergocoder wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

The average salary for a Software Engineer is $107K per year in United States. The average salary for a Software Engineer is $66K per year in Germany (~61% less). Source: indeed and payscale. I always find a bit funny when US devs in HN talk about getting salaries above $200K/year... when the average US dev gets half of that. (I find it funny because everybody here thinks we are above the average dev level and can ge…

Well, IDK where I fit on the skill curve but... my total comp is personally well above that line. There's definitely a bi-modal effect with tech companies issuing RSUs that appreciate dramatically vs. random insurance company or telco.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#165

Post by H8crilA »

joelbluminator wrote: post #84
908B64B197 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU engineers should vote with their feet. That's the only way.

Wont work. Big brother will import talent from Africa, Middle East, India.

It has been working for over a century up to today. What will change that it "wont work" any more?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#166

Post by PurpleFoxy »

908B64B197 wrote: post #54
jchallis wrote: post #52

One option is to emigrate to the United States, driving up pressure on the engineers who remain. My near-term ancestors all left Germany due to poor wages and a tendency for Bismarck to sacrifice draft-age men in wars, and while moving to the US helped their own status it also did a bit to increase pressure at home.

EU engineers should vote with their feet. That's the only way.

But they don’t because having an average pay in Europe is still preferable to having a high pay in America.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#167

Post by suscitate »

While I think that lower salaries are a result of multiple factors, one interesting data point is that governments actively disincentivize high salaries for workers through taxation, and low salary requirements for visas.

For example, the "high" salary tax income bracket starts at £50k in the UK [1] and at €54k in Germany [2]. More or less, these rates are similar across western Europe (except for Switzerland). In the US, tax brackets are far more permissive [3].

Also, in the UK a £25k salary is fair enough to guarantee a visa [3], or €40k [4] in the Netherlands, hinting that these governments think that such a salary is high enough.

Most policies enacted by governments, I think more through ignorance rather than malice, assume that workers making ~€50k have enough and shouldn't need to get increased.

While other factors (lack of big companies & lack of VC investment) probably have a higher impact on the low wages, I think that government policies also have an affect on it.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates [2] https://www.academics.com/guide/taxes-in-germany [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51430811 [4] https://www.iamexpat.nl/career/employment-news/2019-income-r...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#168

Post by quantumofalpha »

pjhol wrote: post #31
quantumofalpha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there is the healthcare system. European healthcare systems are not exactly dream come true either. Range of treatments available/covered and waiting times can be significantly behind the US. US healthcare is actually great for an SWE making bank at a FAANG & co. Just not that amazing for common folks > The US has no guaranteed paternity/maternity leave Top tech companies all have those, it's a fairly cheap pe…

I don't really recognise the first concern you raise, but that might also be due to the fact that viewing all European countries as the same in this regard might be overgeneralising.

Yeah there's certainly some differences between countries, but in most of Europe it seems to me healthcare is directly or indirectly largely run by the government. Whereas in US (and also Switzerland, btw, has which US-like model but without most of downsides) it's privately run. This causes difference in incentives to doctors. In the latter systems, doctors are incentivized to spend more time on you, spare no expense, get you the best treatment possible, but it is not cheap. In the former, they are incentivized to do the bare minimum

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#169

Post by pietrovismara »

hogFeast wrote: post #149
distribot wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of surprised by the idea of saving nothing for your children. Is it a symptom of the dog eat dog American system of capitalism that it seems kinda wild to me? I guess if you can be certain that their fundamental needs will be met, it isn't as important. But in the US your life can be pretty crap, even if not abject developing world style poverty.

I am not sure what that alludes to either. Germans and Italians save huge amounts of their income (typically, higher than the US). You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy, one isn't given to you (state pensions in Europe, even in the UK, are contribution-based). Welfare systems in Europe are not redistributive like in the US, they are typically contributory (you get out what you put in).…

> You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy

Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary. Far from me to say that the system is perfect but you basically just need to work.

Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe, it wouldn't make sense as those who need public welfare the most are those that can contribute less. Some countries like Austria have a healthcare system based on insurance, but employers are required to pay for it, students have it for free and unemployed as well.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#170

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

Do engineers in Europe get as much of their comp in stock as the do in Silicon Valley? My hypothesis on why salaries have gone up so high here is if you want to hire folks away from successful companies, that success means their stock grant is likely worth loads more than it was when they signed on, which you now have to match to compete.

If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr (say $70k cash and $30k RSUs) but because the stock has 4x’d in that time, now they’re making $200k ($70k cash, $130k RSUs). To hire them away now you have to offer $200k as a starting package. And that’s for every single Apple employee with significant stock comp. There’s a critical mass of successful companies, so for google to hire from Airbnb, they have to pay that skyrocketing-comp premium. Airbnb has to do the same to hire from Uber. Uber has to do the same to hire from Facebook, and so on.

Stock based comp in an on-average-growing competitive environment means market comp goes up too.

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