The only thing I will add is that you need to make a goal that will keep you motivated to move forward. Also, you can't stop and hope to return at a future time. You need to work through it until you are done.
Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
161–170 of 181 posts
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, I finished a mathematical physics PhD, without a hint of SRS. During my undergraduate time I knew people memorizing instead of trying to understand theorems (especially ones with background in chemistry). Often they got good exam results... and almost never it helped to build a bigger picture, or do research in mathematics. That said, I have ADHD and any small-dose-but-regular learning (typical for classes!) wa…
I would be curious as to any techniques you used to overcome this painful regular learning. I find certain 'plain' tasks (for lack of a better word) excruciating.
Read "Driven to distraction" https://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizin..., you may resonate with some of these points (even if you don't experience a full-blown ADHD).
In my case, well, if something really needs to be regular, the only way to go is external pressure (external deadlines, people meeting at a given time with the goal to learn) and bringing some intensity (instead of 1h learning, a day focused on that).
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
SRS is great for memorizing truly unconnected pieces of information, like names of capital cities. For anything where the information is connected, it's a lot better to use those connections instead of drilling it in a decontextualized fragments via SRS.
> it's a lot better to use those connections instead of drilling it in a decontextualized fragments via SRS. Or, you can use SRS for "spaced repetition" of making these connections. That is, instead of treating it as rote memorization, use it for the timing effects. When I see a card about X1 which is part of a larger concept Y, I don't think "what was the exact answer to X1, which I remembered without any understand…
Maybe this will be a clearer explanation of what I said: https://alchemist.camp/learning-machine/spaced-repetition-sy... (starting at 11:27)
> "[00:11:27] These SRS flash card apps are very good for learning vocabulary and depending on what's included in the flashcards, they could be for grammar as well. But the problem for a language learner is that it's de-contextualized. So say if you just study vocabulary words, then they're going to be a lot of things that you'll miss like collocations. You won't know which words are normal to use with which other words. For example, in English, if someone asks, "How are you?" it would be completely normal to answer, "pretty good". It would also be fairly normal to answer, "absolutely fantastic". But it would be strange to answer that you're doing "absolutely good". There's no grammatical reason. It's just not something that English speakers tend to say.
[00:12:17] And there are many, many, many language features that are like this. There are also questions of word boundaries. For example, in English, the word "nose" refers to a person's nose or a dog's nose, but not every kind of animal. For example, an elephant in English doesn't have a nose. It has a trunk. In Japanese, the same word, 鼻 (hana), is for a person's nose and the elephant's nose. So the question is, what exactly does "nose" mean? Well, really tedious language teacher could explain this for every single word that you study, or even put this on the back of every flash card for every word that you're reviewing. But, it's not going to be efficient. You'll spend so much time worrying about edge cases for every single word that you're learning that you're actually not going to get anywhere.
[00:13:11] The solution in language learning is extensive reading. If you do a lot of reading and the material is easy enough that you can go at a decent speed, then you'll just get so much input that you'll have a feel for what words are used when and you'll know what the specific definition boundaries around though are. And of course, it's not just language learners that have this problem with spaced repetition systems—that everything is reviewed out of context.
[00:13:11] You might remember from when you were younger and taking math classes, there were certain techniques that you had to get good at or you had to be able to do at least on some tests, like say, use trigonometric identities and some information to figure out how tall something is or how far away it is or completing the square to derive the quadratic formula... something like that. Mastering these kinds of problem solving techniques has the same sort of issue revolving around context. If you just mechanically memorize each piece of a method, you won't necessarily be able to apply it when you're given an actual problem on a test or any other situation.
[00:13:41] On the other hand, if you put the entire problem into a flash card like say you just write out a math problem and that's the cue part of your flash card, and every time you see that card, you have to solve the whole problem. Well, that's going to take enough time that you won't be able to do those problems very often. You might want to do it for some really important things, but it can't be your go to study method.
[00:14:55] Similarly with programming, you can memorize a lot of things about a programming language, but you're not actually going to learn that language or learn how to program at all if you don't write programs and if you don't have the experience of making mistakes and then the experience of debugging those mistakes and fixing your programs."
Trust me, this is an issue I've thought about a lot. I contributed to Anki in the mid 2000s, have previously made 10k+ decks I used for years and spent two years trying to integrate them into a curriculum for other students.
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#164I'm a big fan of the idea of using Spaced Repetition for this. The idea is that it allows you to both: - be able to keep your knowledge / understanding of an area around for the long term; but also - be able to gradually build up your understanding by first committing the fundamentals to memory, and then using that to build up your level of abstraction and get to the more complex ideas and principles. Michael Nielsen…
Personally, I am a big anti-fan of the Spaced Repetition. IMHO it is a wonderful solution to a wrong problem (i.e. memorizing random things). Sure, there are use cases: learning words in a language one is not exposed to on a daily basis or cramming for a medical school exam. When one actively uses something, there is a natural spaced repetition of the things that matter. With the frequencies as these things are used…
Yes. This is spot on. Another issue is losing the larger picture.
In the language learning example, Extensive Reading leads to not only picking up and remembering words, but also collocations, grammar and even cultural beliefs of the speakers of the target language. Single word flash cards miss all of that. Full sentence flashcards do a bit better but still fall short.
I think the best use for SRS for something like a language or programming is for laying down a scaffold in the very early stages of learning, and then moving to more productive uses of study time as soon as possible.
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
SRS is great for memorizing truly unconnected pieces of information, like names of capital cities. For anything where the information is connected, it's a lot better to use those connections instead of drilling it in a decontextualized fragments via SRS.
> For anything where the information is connected, it's a lot better to use those connections instead of drilling it in a decontextualized fragments via SRS. It's a false dichotomy. You can, and IMO should, do both.
It's not a false dichotomy because time is limited.
Every minute spent on flashcards is a minute that cannot be spent on more contextualized study.
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#166Embrace it and immerse yourself in the material. For example what is the fastest way to become fluent in a foreign language: full immersion.
In terms of software just write the new code and build a product with it. Fail, fail, and fail against until you get it working and then wear away at the rough spots until it becomes familiar and muscle memory.
In terms of some abstract concept like security or accessibility or performance simply read the material and apply the concepts as immediately and directly in your real life as you can. After theory and practice come together it won't be so challenging and then after a few times it will become familiar.
There isn't any magic to this. Just be disciplined and muscle through it.
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#167https://blog.phuaxueyong.com/post/2020-02-15-list-of-feb-art...
Interestingly, i wrote a brief paragraph about this as well. Thought to share with the community. Long story short, just work at it. Be comfortable with you not knowing (:
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#168So, I can only say this.
I teach very technical material, and when I'm teaching, students nod their heads, "Yes, yes, makes sense..."
But then when I give them an exercise and say "OK, you all told me you understand this, now go design X", many (not all) of them start to implode.
I've realized, the only way you get better, in addition to constantly feeding your brain, IS BY //DOING//. You have to go out there and slay the beast. Go ahead and fail en route, I did. But stay in the fight, kick ass, learn, struggle, ask questions, grow.
There are way too many armchair experts. Go do it. I did it. It was hard. But then you've proven you can persevere and win. Everyone's a legend in his own mind.
I love to see self-appointed "the smartest guy in the room" struggle. Not because of Schadenfreude (sorry, I'm bilingual) but because until you've triumphed on new ground, you're a learner like everyone else.
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For anything where the information is connected, it's a lot better to use those connections instead of drilling it in a decontextualized fragments via SRS. It's a false dichotomy. You can, and IMO should, do both.
It's not a false dichotomy because time is limited. Every minute spent on flashcards is a minute that cannot be spent on more contextualized study.
> Every minute spent on flashcards is a minute that cannot be spent on more contextualized study.
I often spend less than 5 minutes in the morning on my flashcards. There's not much deep contextualizing you can do in 3-5 minutes. Certainly not in areas like physics.
It is a false dichotomy. All minutes are not equal. I'll gain much more by spending less time on HN than by cutting out flash cards.
Re: Ask HN: How do you learn complex, dense technical information?
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When one actively uses something, there is a natural spaced repetition of the things that matter. With the frequencies as these things are used in practice. Everything else can be looked up later. Disagree: There's a grey area in the middle where it is costly to always look it up, but you don't do it often enough to ever be ingrained in memory. SRS is a fairly effortless way to cure it. When I started my current jo…
My general practice with mathematics is and Anki is to: 1) Understand the material I'm learning. 2) Put explanations of any algebraic procedures (for instance, the dot product of two vectors) as a flip card. 3) Put a single example of doing the work in a flip card. For important proofs, I put them in Anki using Cloze deletion. I just drop in the whole proof, and knock out portions. This has been extremely effective i…
> For important proofs, I put them in Anki using Cloze deletion. I just drop in the whole proof, and knock out portions. This has been extremely effective in remembering and understanding the proofs.
Thanks - I still haven't used it for mathematics, but this is good to know. I do have a few proofs of theorems in statistics in my flashcards, but the whole point of the cards is to spend only a few minutes a day on them - and doing a few proofs requires a paper, pen, and time. So I keep those in a separate deck and do them only when I know I have time.
My concern with mere cloze deletion is that I'll likely get the illusion of understanding without real testing (being able to rederive something is a real test). I'll likely go for a hybrid approach - full proofs in a separate deck and either proof sketches or cloze deletion in the regular deck.
> One of the most important things I remember mentioned in that class was that memorization and understanding are actually quite tightly linked.
This stood out to me when I took the course, although my memory of it is different. I don't think she said memorization, but "covering it and reproducing it in your own words" - the latter requiring understanding. But yes, she claimed that the research showed this outperforms things like mind maps, and that nothing has so far been shown to outperform this.