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Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#161

Post by nocturnial »

megous wrote: post #152
nocturnial wrote: post #140

Tell them it's OSS and they can fork the code-base if they want more fine grained control. I know it's not going to resolve any issues but at least you are forcing them to say why that's not possible now and what long term plans they might have in store.

Well, the question is about the authorship. If the company holds the copyright, and always held it based on whatever is in the employment agreement, this will not work, since they can just relicence the project, and the original licencing of the work under OSS license would also be in question.

If I'm reading it right, the company asked to transfer control of the code-base. It's not a cease and desist which you normally see in ownership disputes. I'm not in the US and the laws could be different. But from a local legal standpoint they admitted to having no ownership claim by asking to transfer it.

Ownership might also be the wrong terminology, but I wanted to avoid the word "authorship" because you can never relinquish that right. At least to our national laws... Again not sure how it works in the US

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#163

Post by goatherders »

Surprised that no one has mentioned that you should first review the employment doc you signed. In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Getting a lawyer involved may just turn in to an expensive and antagonistic experience that winds up with you simply ending up....with them owning the IP.

One thing to consider- spin off your side project and try to get your employer as your first customer or as the exclusive distributor.

But your employment contract should have an IP provision, and that is going to be 99% of any outcome.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#164

Post by tyingq »

"the product directly relates to what my employer does so I've sort of cornered myself in a bad place"

Yeah, that makes it complicated. Even the advice to get a lawyer is tricky, as it could telegraph intent and put you even further in a corner.

I suppose a consultation is fine, but I would be very careful about letting them know you retained one.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#165

Post by mch82 »

monocasa wrote: post #27
yolo42 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have thought about GPL when I released the code. But, that boat has sailed. Could they change the license later on if it is initially GPL? I'm thinking about the next project that I'll be doing so that I don't repeat the same mistake.

For the future, I would totally read Social Architecture. It's available here for free (libre and gratis), and is not long, 100 pages or so printed. https://hintjens.gitbooks.io/social-architecture/content/ A huge part of that is how to structure an open source project so that it can't be taken from the community. Basically a combo of GPL and taking community contributions without having them assign copyright to you…

> Basically a combo of GPL and taking community contributions without having them assign copyright to you is the most full proof way to keep something open source.

Sorry, but your advice is refuted by research. Both GNU and Apache ask developers to sign contributor licensing agreements. For Apache, see “ASF Contributor Agreements”, https://www.apache.org/licenses/contributor-agreements.html. For GNU, see “Copyright & Compliance” at https://www.fsf.org/licensing/.

The Wikipedia article about Contributor License Agreements cites this article by OSS Watch, http://oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/cla. This is the first time I’ve heard of OSS Watch, but they might be a helpful source of legal advice based on their About page, http://oss-watch.ac.uk/about/

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#166

Post by DoubleGlazing »

yolo42 wrote: post #49
relaunched wrote: post #23

Find a lawyer, ASAP, that specializes in employment and / or IP. This is a legal issue and you need to solve it with people that know the law. Talking, signing, admitting things, etc, only hurt you. Depending on your country and state, as well as your employment agreement, there are a lot of impactful variables. Intuition and personal relationships are not going to help you solve this issue, especially, absent knowin…

Thank you for the comment! I totally get what you and other threads are trying to say and I don't disagree with what you are saying. I probably should have cleared this out in my original post (my bad) that I do not wish to pursue the legal route. I personally feel that in my case, it will just drain everyone's energy for not much gain at the end. Also, personal relationships matter to me as well. I'm trying to find…

It's worth noting that your employer will probably have already spoken to a lawyer about this, or will be prepared to if you don't comply with their request.

A 30 minute session with a lawyer will give you much more insight in to how to deal with this situation more than what you can learn from an internet forum.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#167

Post by giancarlostoro »

sakoht wrote: post #145

I am not a lawyer, so this is merely a speculative guess: Currently, if they technically own the code, your open-sourcing it isn’t valid. You can put an Apache license in the repo, but you can’t legally give a license to others to use something you don’t actually own. So the code is not really open source until someone puts that license on it with company authority. It is just public. It sounds like this product comp…

> But it seems you should only do further work on the fork if and after leaving.

And only if the company open sources it.... Cant just be forking over proprietary code.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#168

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

goatherders wrote: post #163

Surprised that no one has mentioned that you should first review the employment doc you signed. In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Getting a lawyer involved may just turn in to an expensive and antagonistic experience that winds up with you simply ending up....with them owning the IP. One thing to consider- spin off your side project and try to get your employer as your first customer or as t…

it does look like an open/shut case. and without knowing full details this would also be my first reaction.

But IMO it's still worth talking to (2 or 3) lawyers which specialize on the subject[1]. It gets expensive only if you decide to fight - and you don't need to make that decision just yet.

Just asking a legal expert to review your case isn't going to be outrageously expensive, but gives you a better understanding for deciding if this is worth any risks. And it would give you also a clear picture about how to protect yourself for any future ideas.

[1] I have a rule which served me well. Interview (review) any legal adviser, accountant or consultant that you might want a professional relationship with. After talking to several people you know exactly the questions to ask them to decide if they are a good match for you. Also ask them for client references and a sample invoice they have issued for similar cases. Do these discussions always in person (over a coffee) never online. The first consultation has always been free for me (idk how it is in the US though).

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#169

Post by giancarlostoro »

You seem to have answered it to a point. They wanna make sure everyones happy and they like to contribute to open source. Tell them your concerns and what you actually want.

Dont be afraid to be transparent. I would still review your contract and potentially call a lawyer just to see if theres any action whatsoever but it might not be necessary.

Just be open about your wants and needs. Tell them you just want to be able to keep your project since you worked on it in your own time. Hell tell them you are okay exposing your codebase under their org. But get it in writing that you intend to keep rights to all code you write even if done at work. Allowing you to be paid to work on it for customers they nab.

At the end of it its all your choice. Just negotiate terms that make you happy. Do not hold back concerns. Period. But be smart and ensure they have a legal footprint. Make sure to get copies of anything you sign. Dont agree to anything that isnt on paper.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#170

Post by goatherders »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #168
goatherders wrote: post #163

Surprised that no one has mentioned that you should first review the employment doc you signed. In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Getting a lawyer involved may just turn in to an expensive and antagonistic experience that winds up with you simply ending up....with them owning the IP. One thing to consider- spin off your side project and try to get your employer as your first customer or as t…

it does look like an open/shut case. and without knowing full details this would also be my first reaction. But IMO it's still worth talking to (2 or 3) lawyers which specialize on the subject[1]. It gets expensive only if you decide to fight - and you don't need to make that decision just yet. Just asking a legal expert to review your case isn't going to be outrageously expensive, but gives you a better understandin…

Agreed/good post. It never hurts to talk to a lawyer. And a good lawyer is one who will tell you the truth, which is sometimes you dont have a left to stand on.
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