Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#161

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:39 AM UTC

tehlike wrote: post #85

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

Devil's advocate: US economy, startups, and so on are stronger than that of Europe's.

That is really a weird blanket statement: Both places have their own weirdness.

You probably aren't going to do so well with a start-up in rural Mississippi or Indiana, mostly because folks don't have much money to spend on your wares, yet in some other areas it'll seem like they are doing well. Same thing with Europe. There are a lot of countries and economies and different regulations there and it is quite hard to compare with the overall thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#162

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:44 AM UTC

SmokyBourbon wrote: post #84

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

It's worth pointing out that, while health care in Germany is better than most of Europe, it is well below the standards Americans are accustomed to. Americans have a much higher survival rate for cancer and other serious diseases due to advanced diagnostic procedures and higher pay for physicians. Americans are comfortable asking doctors for more tests and services when the doctor doesn't think its necessary because…

Actually, I think you have this mixed up. I'm in Norway, and I never again want to fall victim of the US health care.

You actually have to afford the operation for cancer for them to give it to you - up until it becomes and emergency, anyway (this actually happened to someone with cervical cancer I knew). If you are lucky you can beg around and get it. It doesn't always matter that you have insurance, as a lot of folks can't afford it.

My father had trouble affording insulin and at one point stupidly cut back, which was after he gave up anti-depressants and my mother wasn't seeing the doctor for other things.

If you don't have money, the american system is cruel. I'd much rather deal with the waiting times than to suffer due to lack of money. At least there is hope, and I no longer fear getting sick and winding up homeless because of it.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#163

Post by TulliusCicero » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:45 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #102

TulliusCicero wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does have the highest GDP for any major country, though. The ones above it there are all quite small.

Switzerland, Singapore, Norway, Hong Kong and UAE don't match my definition of "quite small". Each of them has several million inhabitants.

IIRC none of them even breaks 10 million people, the US has 320 million. Small areas can specialize in ways that are impractical for large areas. E.g. the SF Bay area has a very high GDP per capita, but you couldn't have the whole USA specialize in tech the way that metro does with ~7 million.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#164

Post by b__d » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:46 AM UTC

It doesn't make any sense to compare salaries solely by numbers and without comparing the buying power related to the salary in the given country. This is the most basic economic understanding. It just does not work out, no matter what you take in account to "justify" the the higher or the lower one.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#165

Post by ionised » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:54 AM UTC

234dd57d2c8dba wrote: post #144

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

You act like everyone in the USA has to wear body armor, has to set broken bones themselves and lives in tent cities. I have amazing dental, health, and eyecare. Free routine health checkups such as physicals, heck I even get a free gym membership. I drive a 350HP luxury sedan. Oh and I've never shot anyone, had to shoot anyone, or been the victim of a crime other than petty theft where my car was broken into one tim…

Freedom to do what?

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#166

Post by dx034 » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:54 AM UTC

bgia wrote: post #123

ThePhysicist wrote: post #37

A part of the gap can be explained by the way that work is organized in the US compared to Europe. Let's compare e.g. Germany and the USA: https://data.oecd.org/germany.htm https://data.oecd.org/united-states.htm If you scroll down to the Economic indicators, you will see that on average people in the US work around 1.700 hours a year, whereas people in Germany (and many other European countries) work only 1.400 hour…

My wage in the US is about 3 times what I'd be making home in France. 3 times. Trust me I'm not working 3 times as many hours as my friends over there. Actually it's quite the opposite.

You still need to pay much more for housing, healthcare, services. And if you have a severe illness, healthcare will pay for the treatment but you can still lose your job. Add to that less holidays (in France you'll usually have 30+ days/yr), higher contributions to private pensions, and you'll quickly end up at a much smaller difference.

SV can still pay much better than France, but you don't get the ease of mind of working in a system that takes care of you if you're less fortunate or can't do your job anymore at some point.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#167

Post by dx034 » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 10:58 AM UTC

sremani wrote: post #77

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

>> university costs 150$ for 6 month. This is not a German miracle, its simple demographics, most of the Germans are in their productive years of 40s and 50s and their population in teens and 20s is tiny, so their investments are low even though at per-capita level they look tremendous. This is the reason why Germany's hope is automation. They are demographically not in a great place. of course, this will come home t…

No, it's an economic decision. You pay for expensive university via higher costs for specialists. Healthcare is a good example. One reason that it's so expensive in the US is that the education is insanely expensive and doctors need to charge a certain amount to make sure it pays off. In Germany, nearly no one will have more than $10k debt after Uni, so the salary you need to earn as a lawyer or doctor is much lower. And as much of doctors' salary is paid by the state (directly or indirectly), it can be much cheaper to finance universities.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#168

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:01 AM UTC

alimw wrote: post #146

tedmiston wrote: post #93

Five things: 1. We are taxed on income heavily in the US. 2. Insurance is expensive here. 3. In the hubs, rent is very expensive. Take-home pay after considering these three things is a lot less than you might think. And also: 4. Generalizing the salary of positions across the whole US is misleading. An average engineering job in the midwest or outside of a hub can pay half the salary of SF or NYC. 5. It really depen…

> 1. We are taxed on income heavily in the US. I was surprised at this so I looked it up. From the article [1] it looks as if income tax in the US is lower than in most of Europe. But yes, higher than Russia, Saudi Arabia or Mexico. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26327114

To be fair, though, that tax includes the health care. At least in Norway, anyway, and many countries on the list.

And to me, it makes a huge difference. Some folks in the midwest pay about as much per month on health insurance as they do on rent: It isn't a minor expense. Even with employer-subsidized insurance, it is easily a few hundred per month, plus they have to pay the deductible before it kicks in. $5,000 after the monthly fee when you make 50k per year is quite the expectation. (the deductible is 10% of your income at that point).

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#169

Post by dx034 » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:02 AM UTC

SmokyBourbon wrote: post #84

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

It's worth pointing out that, while health care in Germany is better than most of Europe, it is well below the standards Americans are accustomed to. Americans have a much higher survival rate for cancer and other serious diseases due to advanced diagnostic procedures and higher pay for physicians. Americans are comfortable asking doctors for more tests and services when the doctor doesn't think its necessary because…

The healthcare is that good in many European countries. Netherlands, Norway, France, UK (NHS has an awful reputation but is actually quite good) are just some examples. It's rather rare to find a European country with expensive or inadequate healthcare.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#170

Post by dx034 » Tue, Feb 07, 2017, 11:09 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #59

CamMacFarlane wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>[USA] has the highest GDP per capita in the world Not quite, it has the 18th highest. Below Hong Kong, Switzerland, and Ireland all who pay less for engineering. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

The US does have the highest GDP for any major country, though. The ones above it there are all quite small.

I wouldn't dismiss Switzerland. As we're discussing US vs Europe here, working in Switzerland is certainly an option.