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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#161

Post by [deleted] »

boosting7669 wrote: post #143
dragonwriter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Continuing sexual advances in a work context after being explicitly rebuffed is textbook harassment. This is, perhaps, nearly the most minor incident possible of that basic pattern, but it also pretty clearly fits it.

Lots of women love playing hard to get. They enjoy the chase. Giving up can be perceived as a sign of weakness. In any case, try explaining this situation to a real victim of rape or sexual harassment like my late grandmother who had to endure brutal, forceful rape at a young age as a Jew in Lithuania during WW2 and you'll see what a first world problem this is.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#162

Post by Kristine1975 »

boosting7669 wrote: post #145
nikki-9696 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"since no one will want to be the first one to make a move." It's a work environment, not a bar. No one should normally need to make a "first move" in this context. Sure, work romances do sometimes happen, but I don't think our population is in any danger if they do not.

That ignores the fact that you've hired human employees. Maybe chemical castration should be a part of the onboarding process these days?

Contrary to other animals humans are capable of keeping their instincts in check. In fact one could argue that this ability is what elevates humans above other primates. So being a human with a sex drive is no excuse for calling others MILF.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#163

Post by NateDad »

sathackr wrote: post #152
NateDad wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one makes up stories like this. They're ALWAYS TRUE. Plus, she probably can show him history on whatsapp (if it supports that, I don't know). MILF is NEVER a compliment to a stranger. It's NEVER a compliment to a friend you just met. It's probably a bad idea even if you're in her bedroom and both stripping down about to have sex. The only time it's sorta safe to call someone a milf is if you were the one who made…

Wait, so if I go to your boss and tell him you called me a MILF, it's true? It's not completely implausible there is an ulterior motive. And she is well protected if there is. He, on the other hand is not. None of us know enough about the situation to make a determination in either direction.

If you're a woman, yes, it's probably true. Like 10,000,000:1 chance.

If the boss has known me for a long time and it seems completely out of character for me (which it would be), then maybe he talks to me about it to see WTF is up.

But some dude who just got hired? Assuming there's no record and no witnesses? You have to go with the vastly more likely case that he did it.

If that gets 1 in 10,000,000 guys unfairly fired, but gets 9,999,999 guys justly fired, that's a pretty good outcome in my book.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#164

Post by Kristine1975 »

boosting7669 wrote: post #143
dragonwriter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Continuing sexual advances in a work context after being explicitly rebuffed is textbook harassment. This is, perhaps, nearly the most minor incident possible of that basic pattern, but it also pretty clearly fits it.

Lots of women love playing hard to get. They enjoy the chase. Giving up can be perceived as a sign of weakness. In any case, try explaining this situation to a real victim of rape or sexual harassment like my late grandmother who had to endure brutal, forceful rape at a young age as a Jew in Lithuania during WW2 and you'll see what a first world problem this is.

I wonder how your grandmother would feel about you bringing her into this discussion.

Also just because there are worse things than verbal sexual harassment doesn't mean it should be ignored.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#165

Post by natefinch »

falcolas wrote: post #64

Based on the training I've received - document the incident, talk to the problem employee and remind him that this is not appropriate business behavior, and warn him that a repeat performance will not be tolerated, nor will any attempts at retribution aimed at the company at large, or the female employee. Provide training to the company at large, so they know what is, and what is not acceptable in a business. Get tra…

If you don't know by 21 that calling a woman a milf is degrading and offensive, you're never going to learn. Or at least not in any timeframe where it's valid for this company.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#166

Post by NateDad »

logfromblammo wrote: post #128

From a legal standpoint, you need do nothing. He is not in any position to commit quid pro quo harassment. So far, there is no evidence of hostile workplace. What your female employee has done is to cover her own ass in case the new male employee engages in any work-inappropriate behavior. If she comes to you again, and claims harassment, you are primed to believe her immediately and take immediate, appropriate actio…

It's not their personal lives. It was in work time, initiated through work channels. And even if it was at a bar after work, it would still be rude and indicative of the kind of personality you don't want at your company. Waiting for him to slip up and hoping someone will report it is a horrible solution.

It's not like he said "hey nice haircut" and it was taken the wrong way. He called her a milf. There's no ambiguity.

Fire him.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#167

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

dragonwriter wrote: post #156
ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. However once the conversation goes private it's just that - a private non work related conversation. Unless there's anything illegal there like physical threats etc it's a private matter between the parties directly involved.

From every sexual.harassment training I've had given by lawyers working in the field, the idea that a change of venue/forum necessarily removes something like this from work-related is absolutely not the case.

I think there's a fine line there. From what I understand from whatever corporate training I went through in the past - if there's a job-related activity like team dinner and then some ppl go to the bar for a few drinks - this is still 'job related'. Same goes for business-related travel and so on.

In this particular case though - a weekend conversation after an explicit request to take it private - not sure if this qualifies as "job related".

And even if it somehow does qualify as being 'job related' I guess my point is that I can see how by agreeing to switch to whatsapp the signal that she sent was 'yes, let's talk in private' and if he's the kind of dude who calls someone he barely knows a 'milf' I can totally see how in his mind this was 'yea let's hook up' :)

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#168

Post by ChemicalWarfare »

icebraining wrote: post #160
basch wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if a coworker asks me for my personal phone number or email address, something is up. there is a reason they arent using official company provided communication. asking for my phone number sounds like explicit "move this off the record."

Yes, and that might be because they want you to make a move on them, or it might be - like it very recently happened to me - that they just wanted to ask you for help on a side project. I can definitely tell you that I wasn't leading my coworker on when I sent him my personal email address, and I find it weird that it would be someone's only assumption.

If instead of asking you to help out with a project they would've asked you out, would you consider this to be an inappropriate/sexual harassment situation though?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#169

Post by ceejayoz »

whatok wrote: post #75
ceejayoz wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't want to be seen as a problem, and I don't want this to be a case of management portraying it as 'that guy we love got fired because X can't take a joke'".

What is a manager supposed to do in this situation that does not lead to something along the lines of that? In that case, why bother bringing it up?

"Evidence has come to light that X has acted in ways that are both illegal and unacceptable in our organization."

versus

"Y complained that X was flirting with her, so we had to fire him."

It needs to be made clear that management finds the behavior unacceptable.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#170

Post by icebraining »

ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #168
icebraining wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that might be because they want you to make a move on them, or it might be - like it very recently happened to me - that they just wanted to ask you for help on a side project. I can definitely tell you that I wasn't leading my coworker on when I sent him my personal email address, and I find it weird that it would be someone's only assumption.

If instead of asking you to help out with a project they would've asked you out, would you consider this to be an inappropriate/sexual harassment situation though?

No, but neither did she. If they kept pressing after being turned down, yes, probably.
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