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Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

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Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#151

Post by nwatson »

chime wrote: post #18
untog wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very easy to say, but if you have significant equity (which, as employee #2, you really should) it's a lot more difficult to just step away. "The journey" is all very well, but if that journey involves checking out for a year while you wait for a payout then so be it.

> if you have significant equity (which, as employee #2, you really should) That's the big unknown here. If he does have significant equity (even 2.5% or more is good), then what's the problem. He gets to share the long-term benefits without any of the stressful responsibilities and can be solely devoted to doing what he's best at. If a brief mention on About Us page is all he cares about, bring it up at your next re…

Being early employee with 3% quickly turns into burnt out employee with 0.2% after a couple of funding rounds in adverse conditions with a brand new VP engineering who doesn't have the bandwidth or interest to find out how really vital you've been and how much more you still have to contribute. No shiny options package for you. Enjoy the holiday ham and the subsidized yoga.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#152

Post by walterbell »

nwatson wrote: post #144
fotoblur wrote: post #82

I see a number of posts saying that you're probably not experienced or qualified enough to hold these other positions. However, I don't think the VP of Eng, Dev Mgr, or OPS Mgr could do what you do...essentially help start and build a company from day one. Those skills you've developed don't have much value at your current company any longer. They are most likely keeping you around for historical value and once the s…

The rub is: * the OP will need to pay a lot to buy their vested options when they leave each company * the fair market value of common stock will have probably increased so they'll also need to pay immediate income tax on every gain * they likely won't have a market for their shares until acquisition or IPO (five to ten to never years) * the shares they do have will be diluted 10x or more through Series A/B through F…

Try to join when stock has low paper value, exercise the options immediately so there is no gain and no tax. Then you vest shares, rather than options, and can take them with you.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#154

Post by lunarmobiscuit »

Two paths I followed when I faced similar growth issues:

1- Time to create company product #2. Ask for a tiger tea, break out of the hierarchy, and have fun building something from scratch.

2- Move on. Find a great idea or another co-founder, and repeat the startup experience in another startup.

I've done both of these paths. Both can work. Both play on the strength of a generalist who can get a company off the ground, but then who doesn't fit into the subsequent culture of a growth-stage company.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#155

Post by dkhenry »

I know how you feel, there are many great engineers out there in the same situation. I think you might be turning the corner to be a founder. You know what needs to be done to scale a company to success the question is can you do it for yourself or just for others ?

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#156

Post by ww520 »

Early employees of a startup are in a rotten deal. They took slightly less risk than the founders, similar pay cut, but with order of magnitude less equity, and with more work in designing and building the product, running operation, doing marketing, and selling to customers. When the company goes under, their loss is the same as the founders. When the company does well and scales up, their positions and roles will be diminished substantially, and their equity would be diluted again and again with each round (later grant is often not at the same scale as the initial option grant).

Early employees are basically jack-of-all-trade doing essentially the same job as the founders (minus the fund raising) in building up the company but with much less of the upside. If you could, be the founder. Don't be the early employee.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#157

Post by stevewilhelm »

rubiquity wrote: post #43
steven2012 wrote: post #16

One thing you need to come to grips is that regardless of how smart you are, the VP of engineering is probably someone that has a lot more experience and clout than you do. If they aren't, then the senior management of the company is terrible. If your company has grown to the size of 40-50 people, that's the time when they need real experience to help drive them forward. They can't take a chance on a great programmer…

Why is it acceptable for the Founder/CEO to continue leading the company at 40+ employees but not acceptable for the engineer to lead an engineering team at 40+ employees? Seems like a double standard.

> Why is it acceptable for the Founder/CEO

Chances are the Founder/CEO has a controlling share of the company's stock.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#158

Post by [deleted] »

gaius wrote: post #65
untog wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very easy to say, but if you have significant equity (which, as employee #2, you really should) it's a lot more difficult to just step away. "The journey" is all very well, but if that journey involves checking out for a year while you wait for a payout then so be it.

One company, a good friend of mine was employee #1 and I was something like employee #40. After the IPO it turned out we'd gotten the same package equity and options-wise, which is to say, not much... Being an early employee, 99.9% of the time! means getting screwed.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#159

Post by spullara »

I would focus on technical strategy. It is by far the most high-level, important thing you can do on the engineering side and your point of view should be critical. Is there a CTO? Nothing beats a system wide view to really know where to focus.

I was in your position in 1996 when I worked at WebLogic — I was the first server engineer after the founders. To give you an idea of what a crazy career path that can lead to, see my LinkedIn:

https://linkedin.com/in/spullara

I'm still an engineer and code everyday. Just have a lot of other jobs :)

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#160

Post by scurvy »

walterbell wrote: post #152
nwatson wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rub is: * the OP will need to pay a lot to buy their vested options when they leave each company * the fair market value of common stock will have probably increased so they'll also need to pay immediate income tax on every gain * they likely won't have a market for their shares until acquisition or IPO (five to ten to never years) * the shares they do have will be diluted 10x or more through Series A/B through F…

Try to join when stock has low paper value, exercise the options immediately so there is no gain and no tax. Then you vest shares, rather than options, and can take them with you.

Not that many startups allow 83-b elections early on. It costs them a few $k when someone does this. It doesn't necessarily have to (it's just paper filed with the IRS by the employee), but that's what they're told and that's what they went through when they did their own 83-b paperwork. So that's what they think everyone needs to do. Honestly, there really aren't any legally required paperwork involved with 83-b, but the entire ycombinator crowd is convinced that there is. Perhaps it's bad knowledge by the YC figureheads?
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