Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#151

Post by guybrushT » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:31 PM UTC

Zarkonnen wrote: post #57

JasonFruit wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say you did the right thing in not saying what the startup was — it isn't wise to look like a bridge-burner when you're looking for work.

This is a very depressing attitude. A functioning market relies on information flow, and if this information flow is killed because people are scared, the market stops functioning.

You are right. The key is to find a structural solution to this, since this is a common occurrence (i.e. joining startups early stage) - and spread information about the "best practice" way of avoiding situations like the one I went through.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#152

Post by Chronic29 » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:34 PM UTC

Liesmith wrote: post #122

facepalm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the next company who considers hiring this guy. Perhaps they'll think "hm, what if he doesn't like being with us - will he derail us in public, too? Perhaps we can find a less risky candidate".

Exactly. These things are ugly and this is a cautionary tale for anyone looking to work for a new startup but it's also really important to keep from looking like a bitter employee who will turn on you and make you look evil if things don't work out.

I'd much rather give the company a bad reputation. It is easy to get another job.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#153

Post by patio11 » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #113

Liesmith wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is, don't be naive. The people he's talking about are in a position to badmouth him right back, end even if they don't he can get a reputation for being a whiner who will turn on people who hire him the moment things don't work out. If you think that publicly criticizing your ex-employers isn't harmful to your future prospects then you're crazy. No one wants to hire someone who might turn around and comp…

At very conservative estimates for bay area salaries, 2 weeks is probably like $5000. Complaining about that is not "whining" in my book - that's quite a bit of money where I'm from. That said, there are various things involved with the decision.

$5k for two weeks is a pretty princely sum for employees virtually anywhere but, crucially, employees (particularly professional employees) have the reasonable expectation that they will have longer than two weeks of tenure at a new employer. If you can only reasonably expect two weeks of tenure, then you're much closer to a consultant than an employee. Nothing wrong with being a consultant, but COO-caliber consultants charge a heck of a lot more than employees in SF and everywhere else on the planet. A company which extends people standard employment offers but treats them with the no-fault disposability that governs consulting relationships is doing something which is highly irregular.

Conversely, if you're a consultant, you can get constructively fired like this two weeks into an engagement. Happens all the time. It doesn't even require an awkward conversation where they say "Hey, startup life yo, plans have changed." They neglect to schedule you for more work, you follow up, they continue to neglect to schedule you for more work, you take the hint, and then you get paid $50k+ because that is what COO-level consultants cost for two weeks.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#154

Post by JackFr » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

> I officially joined as the COO.

What precisely does that mean?

IANAL, but I know that if you and they signed on the dotted line, apart from the ethics, you have legal rights. Probably fewer in the US than other places, but some protection.

If nothing was signed, then I don't think you "officially joined" as COO. From their perspective, it might simply be more of an episode of serious miscommunication, than any untoward behavior on their part.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#155

Post by pyronite » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

fpgeek wrote: post #81

I'm a bit surprised no one has suggested what I consider the most likely possibility: They had no idea what getting you a visa actually entailed and bailed once you started and they discovered how hard it would be. I'm leaning that way because most people don't understand how hard visas actually are, the way they were vague about their reasons and the timing. Of course, if that's what actually happened, not telling y…

This is an interesting and plausible reason for why they let him go, but if it was the case, they should have came out and said exactly this. What's to lose by being honest about a visa situation?

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#156

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:37 PM UTC

guybrushT wrote: post #111

toomuchtodo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you perfect, 100% without any flaws? How certain then are you that the employee you hire isn't going to start airing your dirty laundry at the earliest convenience? Not at all. If I hire someone, I'm making a commitment. If I made a mistake, its out of my pocket to make them whole. Disclaimer: I have made mistakes hiring people, and have paid them for their troubles, even going so far as to be a reference for t…

Disclaimer: I have made mistakes hiring people, and have paid them for their troubles, even going so far as to be a reference for the other opportunities they had available and telling them it was our mistake. I really respect this.

Thank you, but you shouldn't respect me for doing the right thing. Its what people should do.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#157

Post by guybrushT » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:38 PM UTC

fpgeek wrote: post #81

I'm a bit surprised no one has suggested what I consider the most likely possibility: They had no idea what getting you a visa actually entailed and bailed once you started and they discovered how hard it would be. I'm leaning that way because most people don't understand how hard visas actually are, the way they were vague about their reasons and the timing. Of course, if that's what actually happened, not telling y…

Thats a good theory. I have considered it. The CEO and I did have a long conference call with a lawyer much before they offered me a position. So we were all informed about the steps procuring a visa would entail. However, the steps involved are painful (lots of boring admin work). But still, a very plausible theory.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#158

Post by poof131 » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:38 PM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #48

jowiar wrote: post #26

> I like the founders - they are good guys. No. They're not. You don't get to screw around with other people's lives and continue to possess the title of "good guy". If they were good guys, you would be receiving tens of thousands of dollars for your difficulties, and such would have enough of a runway on that such that you wouldn't need to ask us for advice. Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyo…

I'd say you did the right thing in not saying what the startup was — it isn't wise to look like a bridge-burner when you're looking for work.

Was Edward Snowden a bridge burner for the NSA?

We need transparency both in government and the corporate world. If a company isn't willing to stand by their actions in public, they shouldn't be doing it. And paying the OP severance, admitting a mistake, and moving on is fine by me.

He probably didn't have the right domain expertise, and an advisor/investor told the founders to switch. As green young kid's they didn't do it properly. They need to learn that you can't fire the whole PM team because you want to. These are other people's lives, people who may have mortages, kids, etc.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#159

Post by acveilleux » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:39 PM UTC

Spoom wrote: post #142

yaur wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would talk to a lawyer before doing this... see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

In what way would telling the truth in a private email constitute tortious interference?

Given the US, talking to a lawyer first is pretty much invariably the smarter thing to do. Even without going this far, you can make statements that then negatively impact your bargaining position later on.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#160

Post by michaelochurch » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 4:40 PM UTC

fnbr wrote: post #137

guybrushT wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Try to get those offers back. Explain what happened. I tried. My next choice office is gone (the company found someone else). I was a bit bummed, which is partly what lead me to post here on HN, and seek advice. Thanks for the advice. Its good to know about my rights and options available.

I would strongly advise against suing, however. It certainly sounds like you have a case (although IANAL), but it would damage your reputation[1]. Do document everything though, it's great to have options. [1] I know this is BS, but it's reality. Your reputation shouldn't be affected with your response to unethical former employers, but as someone entering a new community (i.e. bay area startups), you don't want to m…

If he can get one of this other job offers back on terms that are acceptable, he almost certainly shouldn't sue. Lawsuits take a long time and are incredibly draining. It's even more of a liability to be suing someone, while starting a new job. It's hard to serve those two masters at the same time.

In fact, if the offers are unaffected, he doesn't have much of a case because there aren't damages, at least not from that.

By "sue", I mean that he should seek a settlement if he can get a fair one. The company doesn't want a lawsuit either, but he can't look like he'll roll over and play dead. Actually going to court over this is a last resort.

it would damage your reputation.

It depends on what he sues them for, how connected they are, what they say, and how the case plays out. If he sues for emotional distress, then it looks like a frivolous lawsuit (and his odds aren't good). If he sues for detrimental reliance and can prove that he incurred expenses or lost job offers, it's less damaging. It hurts your reputation to sue if (a) the suit can be made to look frivolous (which doesn't mean that it is so; see "Hot Coffee") or (b) embarrassing material would come into the public, as usually happens in a termination suit (even if the employee is in the right).

The reputation risk involved in a wrongful termination suit isn't mainly the fact that the suit occurred. (That's part of it.) It's also the fact that the company is going to have ex-colleagues testifying ("character witnesses", still employed by the firm being sued) and saying that the plaintiff's work wasn't any good. That's sleazy on the company's part, but extremely common in a Wrongful T.