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Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

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Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#151

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

Those figures are wrong to be honest. Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. Plenty of senior folks in Spain making $100k+. In Barcelona, you can make north of $70K easy; even for non-senior devs. I agree with OP. The salary is way too low for a senior European developer to consider because taking a US job means that there are no employment pr…

> Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more.

I doubt that statement. As a German living in Spain since the pandemic, I dealt with this and my social bubble is full of tech expats dealing with this, too. Living in one EU country and working remotely as an employee for another one, is almost legally impossible, and full of unnecessary hurdles for both employer and employee. Everyone of top-talent grade I know who does this, is basically either self-employed (as I am) or operates a "legal construct" such as having empty "mailbox flats" in the country they work for (breaking all sorts of laws by doing so).

The EU itself has never harmonized income tax laws; actually all of the EUs political system always tries not to touch the tax subject at all. As a result, each EU state has an individual double-tax treaty with all other members states. Yes, do the math - there are hundreds tax treaties between EU member states. Non of them are based on some EU guidance or blueprint, and oftentimes older than the EU itself (german-spain treaty dates back mostly to the 1960s with some minor additions in the early 2000s). Finding legal advice alone is almost impossible (i.e. a lawyer that speaks either of your languages and both legal systems recently well). And if you do, good luck, your fellow civil cervant at your tax offices will screw up your fringe case anyways.

Worker-protection laws apply by country of residence, but the employer is bound by their national ones too. If you live in Spain and work remotely for a german company, legally you are bound by spanish worker laws. That is, you get spanish bank holidays off, minimum wage laws of Spain (and Germany!) and so forth. Even when figuring out all legal subtleties, it is simply not manageable for any companies HR department to deal with all country specific regulations and changes, let alone in different languages. I run a company myself and could not employ a person from another EU country within reasonable effort; the only way to go is hire them as contractors or through payrolling agencies. Both will not make them your employees, which has a lot of other legal consequences (holidays, employee patent/inventions laws, but also stuff like you can't really enforce any policy on them without going through the intermediaries).

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#152

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#154

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

> I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are

What is there to reflect on? The reasons for this are well-documented. OP was just stating a fact, but got the ranges a bit off.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#155
post #13

I am not so sure. 80K$ a year would be considered high here (even for a senior) and I live in a medium size city in the Netherlands.

Not sure which city and how much experience those developers have. But we pay 80-100k per year base salary + stock options + pension to medior developers in Amsterdam. Higher for more experienced roles.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#156

Yikes. Those are (central) European numbers, but we get free insulin, free dentistry and free brain & heart surgery, several mandatory weeks of paid time off and months of notice period. I guess the 100k or even 200k, or 300k starting meme finally died at a time of record inflation no less.

lol 100-300k is hardly a meme and is very much market rate still for great talent. It was a meme for juniors.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's anything like Sweden, working as a permanent employee for a company in the Netherlands with that salary also gets you relatively high job security, pension contributions, 6-8 weeks off a year, unlimited sick leave, sometimes a collective agreement with guaranteed pay bumps or bonuses, often additional wellness allowances, etc. Some companies employ through a local entity which gets you some or all of those sa…

Side question: Do people typically get to use all those weeks off? I get 5 weeks off, but it's incredibly difficult to still hit my deadlines if I take any days off.

Not sure about Sweden, but in the Netherlands it's very normal to use the full 5 weeks. I think Sweden is the same.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#158
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

I think many Europeans can't imagine moving to the US (higher work load, less social safety, higher violence) and employers well know it and can keep salaries depressed.

I would move to the USA if I could. As a European is that possible - e.g. don't you need a green card?

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#159
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the terms socialism and capitalism mean. They describe the process, not end result. You can have full blown worker coops in the capitalist system, the question is if they are state mandated or not. The definition of socialism isn't any sytem with a good outcome for workers.

So are you saying that socialism can only exist if it's imposed and maintained by the state? (i.e. no democratic society can be socialist by definition?)

All states impose things on their citizens, including democratic ones. That’s what law is.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#160
Always funny to see SV people not understanding SV, thinking the rest of the world is underpaid.

SV is an planetary anomaly. Hundreds of billions (if not more) of capital free to invest in highly risky undertakings. That's why you earn 200K or more. An enormous surplus of capital with a high tolerance for failure.

That type of capital simply does not exist anywhere else in the world. And this only strengthens the SV effect, like a gravitational force.

Trust me, it's not because Europeans have more holidays. Companies simply cannot afford to pay these salaries anywhere in the world except in SV. Because they quite simply don't have these types of budgets.

To put things in perspective, if you'd travel around the world and call out the number 200-300K/year, people everywhere will assume you own a factory or are some other huge deal. They most certainly will not think of a microservice developer.

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