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Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

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Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#151
ANT+ is easier to develop for and has far fewer issues and was available at the same time as Bluetooth, so we had something better:

https://www.thisisant.com/consumer/ant-101/what-is-ant/

But phone manufacturers opted for Bluetooth instead. Go ask them why. Sony still supports ANT+ on their phones, but it's mostly only used to connect to fitness equipment (which has also mostly moved to Bluetooth because it is what most phones support.)

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#152
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are suggesting that the Bluetooth SIG did just a fine job with the technology, no problems there, and that people like Apple don't see fit to use the money in their budget to cough up a membership fee? Seeing as how it is Apple devices on which I often encounter pairing difficulties. Super convenient for the SIG that they can point fingers like this (I wonder if that's why they set it up as you describe, ugh)…

Do you have other non-Apple devices with which you encounter pairing difficulties? My experience with Bluetooth headphones was that on an iPhone they were occasionally annoying, while on Linux they were quite poor and on Windows they were more like a practical joke. This would have been like 4-5 years ago though, maybe all the stacks have been improved.

QC35... Switch between One Plus 6 and Envy 2021 2 in 1 seamlessly.

Everything switches seamlessly from LG earbuds to Samsung Galaxy A52 5G, Nintendo Switch, Envy with Pop OS and Windows 11.

I have no idea what people are doing.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#153
post #2

There's a long list of comments in that thread discussing "why" it's the case, with most simply saying "it's difficult." I disagree. I think it's the same reason why so much of our software is poor quality: taking something from "works" to "works well" is a cost sink. It will cost you and yet doesn't add much to the bottom line to compensate. It's sad that my family uses the available Bluetooth devices less than if t…

My experience is that better quality Bluetooth headsets can handle being paired to multiple devices, cheaper ones will drive you crazy. I have these on my head right now at the office https://www.v-moda.com/us/en/products/crossfade2-wireless and I have a pair of these at home https://www.poly.com/us/en/products/headsets/voyager/voyager... I wound up getting these after having been deeply dissatisfied with Bluetooth h…

Most people aren't aware of that because it isn't a thing. Listening to music and podcasts on an iphone, streamed via WiFi, then resent via Bluetooth to airpods works just fine for me. I can't say why you're having problems with it though

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#154
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can stay seated on the couch and connect my phone to my stereo. It turns on the receiver and changes the input to Bluetooth upon connection. From there I can then play anything and control the volume on the stereo from my phone. All without needing to even get up from the couch, or potentially even needing to go into the room with the receiver. The receiver has good Bluetooth range. I can change the output to the s…

I guess that depends on how smooth your blutooth interfacing is. For bluetooth speaker's I've had , pairing means holding a button on the physical speaker and waiting for the phone to show up because for reasons the old connection listed on my iphone no longer works. This happens with my mac and a blutooth mouse too. sometimes I can't connect to it right away, I need to go through the discovery and pairing process ag…

> You'd probably get better sound for your money buying a vintage stereo than a modern one with bt shoehorned in.

Eh, I like having it be able to get the digital audio for my home theater setup and handle features like Dolby TrueHD/Atmos and DTS MasterAudio and eARC directly on the receiver instead of having dozens of discrete devices with dozens of analog connections in a cramped case. It's a higher end Onkyo unit, it seems to perform pretty well. I like a lot of the features such as having multiple zones as well.

The other aspect with having it cabled is then my phone is literally physically tethered to my stereo. I can't take it around with me in the house while it's playing music. I can't read things on it or reply to messages or emails without having to stand by the stereo.

Sure, I do sacrifice some slight audio quality using Bluetooth. But to me it's more than made up for by the extreme flexibility of wireless connectivity. And for my pool example, I'm in a noisy outdoor environment driving a couple of all weather speakers pretty hard. I'm not going for extreme high fidelity in that environment.

I've got a Logitech MX Anywhere mouse that can do three profiles of either Bluetooth or Unifying. I have one profile for my work laptop, one profile for my personal laptop, and one profile for my phone, all Bluetooth. I've never had a profile get broken.

I also use a Kensington Expert Wireless mouse and mostly use the Bluetooth connectivity to my work laptop. I've changed the batteries maybe twice in the several years of ownership. It has always just automatically paired when I get in to the office and starts working right away. I've never had to re-do a pairing on it.

On my gaming PC I use Bluetooth gamepads and VR wands. I did have a driver issue after upgrading to Windows 11 which the only resolution I could figure out was a fresh install. After that I haven't run into any other issues with that device.

All my computers use Intel WiFi/Bluetooth chips. They definitely seem to be some of the best quality.

I've had crappy Bluetooth speakers before. They behaved like you've said, where they just seem to forget their pairing or become unreliable over time. I've also had good Bluetooth speakers and headphones that are very good at remembering what they were last paired to and seem to connect almost instantly.

These days even my car key is Bluetooth. I use a Phone as a Key setup, so walking up to my car with my phone authenticates me. Getting in to my car with my phone allows it to be started. All this happens with Bluetooth. I rarely bother taking a key fob with me when I leave.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#155

The Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG) is responsible for publishing all the Bluetooth specs and you can download them here: https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/specs/ Notice that everything appears to be there: very detailed specs and information about testing. However, when you try to implement one of these specs you quickly realize that you cannot do it with the spec alone. You need example code, base imp…

Same with USB consortium. Gotta pay like $10k to get a USB vendor ID. What the fuck were these people thinking to rally up behind this draconian standard? There is a limit to how many vendors they can have, iirc 10k. But for all the issues with it, usb seems to work on devices without Bluetooth-like issues. Standards should be open and free for common public and only have to pay once you reach certain company size. T…

10k is a negligible amount for a device manufacturer.

You'd be surprised at how expensive it is to manufacture things. A plastic injection mold to make plastic parts can be in the five figures, for example.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have other non-Apple devices with which you encounter pairing difficulties? My experience with Bluetooth headphones was that on an iPhone they were occasionally annoying, while on Linux they were quite poor and on Windows they were more like a practical joke. This would have been like 4-5 years ago though, maybe all the stacks have been improved.

QC35... Switch between One Plus 6 and Envy 2021 2 in 1 seamlessly. Everything switches seamlessly from LG earbuds to Samsung Galaxy A52 5G, Nintendo Switch, Envy with Pop OS and Windows 11. I have no idea what people are doing.

The QC35 Bose headphones I have are on their second ear cups, have years of daily use and I think I have run into pairing issues maybe a dozen times. And usually it was to do with having lots of devices in my history that are actively in use and it’s understandable it might be a little confused. It’s been trivial to purge a few less frequently used devices, turn them off and on and that’s it it’s good again. They’ve been an absolute joy and honestly the only feature I’m looking for to make me consider a new set of over ear headphones is being able to listen to audio from more than one device at once… it can be paired to two devices so I can quickly pick up an incoming call, and it will play audio from one or the other depending on which is muted or plays first. It won’t switch back and forth if any background audio (even inaudible silence seems to trigger this)

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#157
post #51

The Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG) is responsible for publishing all the Bluetooth specs and you can download them here: https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/specs/ Notice that everything appears to be there: very detailed specs and information about testing. However, when you try to implement one of these specs you quickly realize that you cannot do it with the spec alone. You need example code, base imp…

So, you are suggesting that the Bluetooth SIG did just a fine job with the technology, no problems there, and that people like Apple don't see fit to use the money in their budget to cough up a membership fee? Seeing as how it is Apple devices on which I often encounter pairing difficulties. Super convenient for the SIG that they can point fingers like this (I wonder if that's why they set it up as you describe, ugh)…

SIG did not do an excellent job with the tech, that's for sure, but his point is still valid, that poor implementations of it causes further issues. Also, SIG is quite slow with new features, so companies start adding their own stuff on top of it. With Apple, things like sharing BT pairings over iCloud comes to mind, which is kind of a weird hack. They also do some non-standard switching between LE and Classic on the go.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#158
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I am on a videocall with my coworkers and want to fill my glass with water, I like being able to go to the kitchen without having to undock and drag my laptop all over the house. Same if I need to find something in a shelf. That is pretty much the only reason I use bt headset.

I'm surprised your bluetooth headphones don't just cut out when you do that. My experience is blutooth has a range of like 30 feet and that quickly diminishes when you introduce walls into the equation.

My bluetooth are ok until I reach the kitchen table and fridge because they are close to the door. It starts doing robot voices and cutting out a few step further.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in telco in the early 2000s when Bluetooth hype was at its peak, and that's just not true: if anything, Bluetooth was hailed as the Next Big Thing because it would enable "Personal Area Networks" (PAN), a now all-but-forgotten buzzword. But don't take my word for it, here's the IEEE in 1999: Examples of applications include Collaborative Maintenance, Mobile Worker, Medical Sensing, Data Synchronization, etc.…

To this date I'm perplexed by how hard it is to send anything from one device to another in close proximity. I remember being surprised when the first BT capable (Motorola?) phone I had couldn't send photos to a laptop, maybe twenty years ago. iPhones never got that ability over bluetooth. Airdrop is still hit and miss. Bump.me was the closest thing to perfection, unfortunately Facebook acquired and immediately threw…

What was bump.me? Photo sharing is why Instagram, Facebook and Whatsapp is insanely popular. Sharing photos is just difficult.

I've had to resort in the past of putting a small web server on the phone, just to get files off it via WIFI. But of course that's clunky.

If peer to peer networking were easier, trustable etc, it could be a real life saver. There's some feature in Google Files that's WIFI sharing, but I haven't tried it.

Re: Ask HN: Bluetooth kinda sucks. Why don't we have something better?

#160
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vendor id is 16-bit so should be enough for 65535 of them

Maybe in next versions they should choose 256 bits (or 160, like bitcoin) which would be the hash of a public key, an any vendor that provides a valid signature, can claim that 160 bit vendor ID. No more need for a central authority I'm probably overengineering it, just pointing out it is technically possible

There is no obvious reason why USB couldn't have used used Ethernet MAC vendor Id, aside from politics.

Instead there could be a single registry like IANA.

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