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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#151

Post by jameshart »

g051051 wrote: post #148
sirsinsalot wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter-point, i've seen engineer-led Scrum and other agile varients work very well. Low stress, high productivity, high predictability. YMMV, and sadly the norm tends to be bad practice, but it isn't all like that. Companies with good engineering culture do engineering well. Companies with a poor culture do most things poorly.

> Companies with good engineering culture do engineering well. Companies with a poor culture do most things poorly. Very true, but the "good" companies will be good regardless of what methodology they use. And it's rarely a one-size-fits-all approach. They recognize what works and what doesn't, without slavishly adhering to a single doctrine in the face of all evidence.

So... when you're looking at a job ad, what words are you looking for that tell you a place has good engineering culture?

I'm getting that 'agile' is not one of those words, but what words are?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#152

Post by ericbarrett »

lmm wrote: post #132
ericbarrett wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my personal experience across multiple jobs: For every company that tries to embody the old Agile Manifesto there are a dozen who've simply plugged The Latest Trendy Management Practice into that module slot and are continuing business as usual. No, thanks.

Sure, just as for every company that actually offers competitive payrates there are a dozen who just say they do. But it's not like not caring about management practices magically makes a company good at them either.

You wrote almost exactly the same thing as the other person who replied. I have to ask (both you and jameshart): What makes you so defensive of Agile? What benefit have you seen it bring? Truly curious, not trying to bait anybody here. My experience with Agile—except when another engineer and I basically stealthed rapid development into a company with 12-month release cycles in the mid-2000s—has been overwhelmingly negative. 45-minute “standups,” major projects given 3 points, every negative stereotype bandied about on HN is something I’ve experienced.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#153

Post by dopidopHN »

Nursie wrote: post #81
jameshart wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it’s not surprising that people who are doing well in the contract market like the contract market. For my part, I literally left the UK in part because the industry there was so geared towards contract work or boutique contract houses as the only viable career path for senior developers. It’s just not for everyone. I like staying with a product team and building and owning stuff; I like companies that build…

I certainly agree that the UK market for senior tech people is very poor, you're right that past a certain point the only way to keep advancing in your career and keep raising your income is to strike out on your own this way. I think it's incredibly short-sighted, but a lot of British businesses treat their software staff as equivalent to generic office inhabitants, rather than highly skilled software practitioners.…

That why I can’t stand contracting. If you treat your team like children they are gonna behave like it.

Also: no accountability of decision. Fire a few people and keep pushing harder. Never smarter.

This does not convey to quality product. It convey to pass arbitrary deadlines with half the team gone and the other ready to switch project.

Terrible knowledge management, too.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#154

Post by jameshart »

water8 wrote: post #128
g051051 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring companies that take pride in offering an agile development environment. Fine by me. Everything I've seen and heard of Agile (both in the last company I worked at and from others) is that's it's a dumpster fire. It wasn't created by developers to improve development, it was created by consultants to sell consulting. DevOps is dumb, too. > Consider the alternative: a c…

It could also mean that they fall under the other extreme of perpetually outdated over-documentation. IMO the only thing worse than no docs are wrong docs.

Would you say that, perhaps, you value working software over comprehensive documentation?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#156

Post by sanitycheck »

dominotw wrote: post #131
sanitycheck wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been contracting for 16 years, had a few perm jobs before that. While it's true that you get paid to do what you're already good at that's the case for everyone. The difference is, as a contractor you can afford to take a few months off and become good at something else - then you'll get a job doing that instead. You can also pick and choose your projects more freely and there's usually nothing stopping you havi…

> become good at something else - then you'll get a job doing that instead. I don't understand this. How can someone trust you that you picked up some new skill if you have no experience in it. Do you put it on your resume anyways? How can somone even pickup software sales ( for example) on their own free time. > I literally LOL'd at this... If you're great at what you're doing, they're keeping you where they are - a…

> I don't understand this. How can someone trust you that you picked up some new skill if you have no experience in it. Do you put it on your resume anyways? How can somone even pickup software sales ( for example) on their own free time.

Well, for anything which produces tangible output you can show off (I'm obviously thinking of programming) it's fairly straightforward to prove you can do it. Software sales? Yeah, no, I couldn't learn that in my spare time - good point.

Personally a jump to marketing and sales sounds roughly as enticing as the time I was offered either redundancy or a new role as a Lotus Notes dev, but I'm happy it floats your boat.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#158

Post by g051051 »

jameshart wrote: post #151
g051051 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies with good engineering culture do engineering well. Companies with a poor culture do most things poorly. Very true, but the "good" companies will be good regardless of what methodology they use. And it's rarely a one-size-fits-all approach. They recognize what works and what doesn't, without slavishly adhering to a single doctrine in the face of all evidence.

So... when you're looking at a job ad, what words are you looking for that tell you a place has good engineering culture? I'm getting that 'agile' is not one of those words, but what words are?

An ad is pretty much useless for that, other than "negative" words (to me) like "scrum", "agile", etc. I'd be looking at the tech stack for things I'm proficient in, or things I'd be interested in learning. Also, WFH is now a critical for me, so it has to be 100% full-time remote work.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#159

Post by qorrect »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #37
willcipriano wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract is a instant no for me. I've done the math and haven't found them to be competitive long term after what the above commenter mentioned (and that's before all the headaches of actually getting paid). Most of my peers feel the same way.

I contracted for 10 years, then switched to a full-time job at a unicorn. Salary-wise, I calculated my yearly netto for the last contracting year, and submitted it to the HR as the netto salary I want to have. They approved in a blink of an eye. The main problem with contracting is lack of career path and random, not very interesting projects where the contractor has little say. The downside of employee life is non-t…

> I also miss the luxury of buying VAT-free tax-deducible gadgets.

Like what kind of gadgets ?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#160

Post by mathattack »

1 - Don’t engage anyone who isn’t able to do the math on total comp. (Benefits, downtime, vacation, etc) If someone is optimizing on today’s paycheck you won’t win.

2 - Be generous with equity.

3 - Quantify career growth and progression.

4 - Sort for people who agree with your mission and want a long term impact.

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