You should look at Gwern's research on the topic: https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics
will do.
Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
151–160 of 642 posts
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#152Here in Canada I've seen caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, and cannabis in the office, all seem generally well tolerated. I have heard of people taking narcolepsy drugs for productivity, but that was just one person I knew and I have never really seen people taking, or talking about taking much else at work.
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
I lived in London for a few years to work in finance (top tier banks as well as hedge funds). I haven't met a single person who takes any sort of stimulants besides coffee. I'm a software engineer myself and your world seems very different from mine despite having worked in the same city. Your normality looks completely foreign to me.
Interesting! That is... really quite surprising to me. I don't know many people anywhere in the world who don't at least recreationally take drugs. I think perhaps we just inhabit different worlds. One thing I can promise you though, is that you do know people who are taking stimulants. They just aren't telling anyone :)
> One thing I can promise you though, is that you do know people who are taking stimulants. They just aren't telling anyone
Yeah, I guess so. I'm also in Berlin, and a lot of people take some kind of stimulant. As someone not taking any stimulants (not even coffee), it was quite hard to spot it in the beginning. At one point I was working with a larger group of people and only after a few months I was told that more than half of them were on some kind of stimulant almost constantly.
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
So is it almost impossible to be a top scientist in your field if you don't get some help so that you can have those epiphany-producing insights, etc?
I... doubt that's true. I imagine there are people who think that this help will help them become top scientists (and maybe we should have a talk about the pressure to succeed etc.). But I suspect that a lot of the actual top scientists are plain good at what they do, and they neither need nor want the effects of drugs in their work. (Which is very different from recreational use, of course, or recreational use turni…
I was at Cambridge for 4 years and I can safely say that none of the professors in my department were using stimulants other than coffee. I can clock someone who is up across a crowded room. None of them were ever up. A large number of the ambitious PhD students and postdocs were though, and a very large proportion of the undergraduates. I think it's probably a generational thing. Students sell to students. Nobody is selling to professors, and even if they tried, those people have already achieved their success in a generation of people that didn't have access to these things.
I think we will see a generation of people come into these positions (e.g. professorships) where a significant proportion of them are using pharmaceutical enhancement as one of the many tools in their box. Stimulants aren't magic, they don't make idiots clever. But if you're a clever person who is tired or stressed, they can (seem to) make a big difference.
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
I... doubt that's true. I imagine there are people who think that this help will help them become top scientists (and maybe we should have a talk about the pressure to succeed etc.). But I suspect that a lot of the actual top scientists are plain good at what they do, and they neither need nor want the effects of drugs in their work. (Which is very different from recreational use, of course, or recreational use turni…
Part of what I'm trying to determine is if that pressure to succeed makes people believe they need something to be competitive. My daughter, for example, sometimes feels like she's at a disadvantage at college because so many of her peers are taking adderall (w/o a prescription) for tests and studying. Is it the same after college, professionally?
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Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#156Adderall and Cocaine. I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost to focus. I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a startup/…
This sounds kind of in line with the theory that drugs are kind of a zero-sum game. You got a lot of speed earlier on and achieved a ton, but then paid for it later on. Kind of like a, "no such thing as a free lunch" economic theory, but for drugs! Not to knock you or your methods, just an observation.
I look at it as a loan. You're borrowing a little of tomorrow's (good mood, productivity, energy, etc. etc. depending on which drug it is) to use today, but you'll eventually have to pay it back with interest.
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is, subjectively, absolutely insane to me. In your experience do people have an easy time going off these substances?
Haha, well, I can only assure you that it's basically just fine. Nobody gets hurt. It's just a thing people do - like drinking coffee or energy drinks. But it works better. In the case of amphetamine-related stimulants (ritalin, adderall, dexedrine, speed), it's easy to come off them if you aren't abusing them for pleasure as opposed to work. There's a level of use that enables effective work, and then another much h…
Interesting. Do you think the drug use is due to pressure to succeed / survive, or because you get more out of your time? Having more productive time is appealing but the idea of working 24/7 makes hanging myself appealing by comparison.
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not so sure about that (never seen it myself)... but cocaine is a LOT more prevalent than people realize. There is a funny meme I saw recently that rings true: Two biggest shocks of adult life. 1. everyone does cocaine 2. cheese is fucking expensive
Man, I really wouldn't. My understanding is that of the people who present to the emergency department with chest pain, something like a third of them have been using cocaine. It causes Real Problems. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/drug-relate...
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Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#159Adderall and Cocaine. I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost to focus. I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a startup/…
Seeing a manager go this path, and seeing his productivity plummet, I'm pretty sure the productivity boost is merely perceived. There was a story on HN with people trying to microdose on LSD, and the alleged benefits - long story short, when they asked peers about their performance, they noticed they're more distracted and not more productive, while those doing the microdosing thought they're on a super productive tr…
Every study I've seen of Adderall (and amphetamine analogues like bupropion) says that it really does improve focus and productivity, even in non-ADHD users.
There are two big hurdles, granted (apart from side effects). One is how long-term toleration works - users report continued efficacy, while objective tests seem to suggest decreased sensitivity. Two is how amphetamines mix with intelligence; normal-IQ users appear to have unchanged or worsened performance on intelligence tests despite 'feeling smarter'. (The same goes for Modafinil.)
But neither of those things really challenge the core observation: in the short term, Adderall and similar substances improve attentiveness, focus/willpower, and probably memory.
They often aren't worth it, and non-medicinal use is often unsustainable. But if someone is showing up with "brain fog" and underperforming while feeling skilled, that really sounds like something else is up. Either a paradoxical reaction to the drug, or some substance other than core focus/'smart' drugs.
edit: I just looked, and paradoxical drowsiness is a known response some people have to amphetamines. I'd bet that the person you're describing has an atypical response to amphetamines.
Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector
#160Adderall and Cocaine. I remember a CEO of one of my early startups would give me 5mg addies to help me get more done. I appreciated it because it was great to get the added boost to focus. I eventually worked my way up to taking 30mg of XR daily (legally, doctor prescribed) and it was the most productive I have ever been in my life. I worked 24x7. I was working a normal consulting job while also working on a startup/…
Any chance you can explain why? Not enough hours in the day kind of thing? Is the only route to success in software engineering to work 24/7?
That's the perception, and you're likely to find that perception in this thread, but I don't believe it.
Work smart or go home.