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Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

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Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#151

Post by wpietri »

dang wrote: post #29
hiddencost wrote: post #13

Woman: "Women in tech, I'm looking for help navigating X issues that are specific to my gender's well publicized challenges in the industry." Men of HN: "None of this is real, stop making stuff up." ... I dunno; I've found metafilter has some folks in tech who might be more useful to you. Maybe this thread will become less of a clusterfuck as time goes on. My experience has been that asking to talk to a woman on the…

> Men of HN No, that's not fair. The commenters you're referring to exist, and so do many others. Edit: There's a pattern on HN, and maybe other internet communities as well, where the first comments to appear on a topic (especially one on which people are divided and have strong feelings) tend to be angry, reflexive ones by people who are quickly triggered and respond from pre-existing judgments. That doesn't mean t…

I think it is a reasonably fair generalization. A bit hyperbolic to make a point, but given that, I'd call it reflective of my experience here. And I say that as a guy.

Every time I see a topic like this come up here I flinch, because I know there will be a lot of garbage, and quite often the garbage will predominate. I know you've been working on that, and I appreciate it. I hope we get there. But we're far from there yet.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#152

Post by exelius »

watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

Absolutely.

In my experience, "bro culture" is simply a sign of an immature corporate culture that hasn't figured out how to address true diversity. It means that the workplace is not likely to be supportive of people who don't fit a mold (ping pong and beer are not things I care about). They'll pay some lip service to diversity, and they'll point to some gay guy who is exactly like everyone else (except he dates guys) as an example of "hey look, we're inclusive!".

Your experience meshes well with mine -- when the company leaves the culture out of it, employees have more freedom to be themselves. If you try to cater to one type of employee, anyone not in love with that "culture" is going to feel left out -- so it tends to become self-reinforcing over time.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#153

Post by roguecoder »

dang wrote: post #29
hiddencost wrote: post #13

Woman: "Women in tech, I'm looking for help navigating X issues that are specific to my gender's well publicized challenges in the industry." Men of HN: "None of this is real, stop making stuff up." ... I dunno; I've found metafilter has some folks in tech who might be more useful to you. Maybe this thread will become less of a clusterfuck as time goes on. My experience has been that asking to talk to a woman on the…

> Men of HN No, that's not fair. The commenters you're referring to exist, and so do many others. Edit: There's a pattern on HN, and maybe other internet communities as well, where the first comments to appear on a topic (especially one on which people are divided and have strong feelings) tend to be angry, reflexive ones by people who are quickly triggered and respond from pre-existing judgments. That doesn't mean t…

Perhaps, then, we need a better system that enables women to have productive conversations here.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#154

Post by s73ver »

jey wrote: post #109
pascalxus wrote: post #53

I'm not a minority, but I think you should be asking this question to everyone, not just minorities. Everyone deserves a non-toxic environment and it's an issue everyone has to deal with. Here's my strategy: Read the glassdoor reviews - If it mentions "people crying at their desks", that's a bad sign - actually any kind of crying in a professional environment is a bad sign. Also, words like "high energy" and "passion…

> Also, words like "high energy" and "passion" often reflect poorly as well. Interesting. Can you expand on this? I don't see "passion" as negative; it seems to just mean that people like their work.

In job adverts, "passion" is often shorthand for "willing to work unpaid overtime."

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#155

Post by alaskamiller »

Silicon valley culture used to be that way, and is still that way. The cube farms was the prevailing best practice.

Then the pendulum swung to the other side with the new kids entering the workforce and wanted open office, work families, and all that. Which then created the cargo culting from others entering the process.

Now we're on the bubble of the pendulum swinging back.

So it goes.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#156

Post by killjoywashere »

watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

Interesting test case: the military has no free beer and I've seen precious few ping pong tables. Yet Marines United is a thing.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#157

Post by nostrademons »

a3_nm wrote: post #143
nostrademons wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: not a woman, but this exact question just recently came up among several of my female friends in another forum I follow. I'm not sure I like or agree with their conclusions, but I'll pass them on in the hopes they'll be useful. They came up with two big questions that have surprising predictive power: 1.) Do you have daughters? 2.) Does your wife work outside the home? (Probably couched in more neutral la…

> this assumes a male boss The second question further assumes that the boss is in a heterosexual relationship...

...and that they have kids. The women in question were actually called on this by another childless woman within the community, pointing out that single & childless employees may still also have family obligations or other reasons they have to leave work at a set time.

In my opinion, these questions are problematic in a number of ways (my other big beef with them is that they discriminate based on characteristics that the manager has no control of, which don't directly measure the attribute you're looking for). Nevertheless, employers make snap judgments about potential employees all the time based on indirect-yet-predictive attributes; it's not unfair for prospective employees to do the same thing about their potential employer.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#158

Post by wpietri »

problems wrote: post #58
gizmo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a HN moderator maybe reconsider making #notallmen type responses. Sexism on HN is prevalent and it's harmful when moderators minimize this issue by emphasizing not all comments are awful. The barrage of sexist comments that show up every time this subject is discussed is clear evidence this community has a sexism problem.

> Sexism on HN is prevalent Sexism on HN is prevalent amongst the most downvoted comments on the page perhaps... I wouldn't say this community has a sexism problem any more than "real life has a sexism problem", the same - or worse, heavily upvoted sexist comments can be found in just about any other online community, so making it out like HN in particular has a problem when quite clearly the majority around here do…

> I wouldn't say this community has a sexism problem any more than "real life has a sexism problem"

I guess I've only been using HN for... [looks at bio] 9.77 years. But yes, I'd say HN is significantly worse than real life. And honestly, I expect it to be better. It's backed by YC. It's a professional forum for people who pride themselves on being smart and rational.

Almost every time a topic like this comes up here I consider it an embarrassment. I am always encouraging people to get involved in tech. I would like this to be a place I can send people new to the industry. But the amount of sheer garbage on anything that doesn't coddle the feelings of white men means I can't.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#159

Post by hackinthebochs »

jey wrote: post #109
pascalxus wrote: post #53

I'm not a minority, but I think you should be asking this question to everyone, not just minorities. Everyone deserves a non-toxic environment and it's an issue everyone has to deal with. Here's my strategy: Read the glassdoor reviews - If it mentions "people crying at their desks", that's a bad sign - actually any kind of crying in a professional environment is a bad sign. Also, words like "high energy" and "passion…

> Also, words like "high energy" and "passion" often reflect poorly as well. Interesting. Can you expand on this? I don't see "passion" as negative; it seems to just mean that people like their work.

The problem isn't wanting passion, its who are the types of people to emphasize passion in an interview or job announcement. It's similar to how "code ninja" was the former dog whistle for the kinds of environments that expected late nights, long hours, and no life outside of the office. The terminology has just changed.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#160

Post by m_fayer »

exelius wrote: post #152
watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

Absolutely. In my experience, "bro culture" is simply a sign of an immature corporate culture that hasn't figured out how to address true diversity. It means that the workplace is not likely to be supportive of people who don't fit a mold (ping pong and beer are not things I care about). They'll pay some lip service to diversity, and they'll point to some gay guy who is exactly like everyone else (except he dates guy…

"Bro culture" also usually involves people without the humility and communication skills to properly band together and rise to the occasion when the going gets rough. Yet another reason to avoid these companies.
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