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Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#151

Post by wyclif »

Veen wrote: post #124
tedmiston wrote: post #93

Five things: 1. We are taxed on income heavily in the US. 2. Insurance is expensive here. 3. In the hubs, rent is very expensive. Take-home pay after considering these three things is a lot less than you might think. And also: 4. Generalizing the salary of positions across the whole US is misleading. An average engineering job in the midwest or outside of a hub can pay half the salary of SF or NYC. 5. It really depen…

> The holy grail is to geoarbitrage by getting paid by a company in a location that pays highly while living remotely somewhere the cost of living is much lower. Yes. I work remotely for a US company, and live in Hungary. I'm British. It's a great arrangement. Hungary is a modern country but much less expensive than the U.K.

I also work remotely for a US company, but live in the Philippines right now. It's quite inexpensive to live here on the US dollar. Now, the big difference between your situation and mine is that I'm in a developing country that is struggling to become modern in the sense you're referring to and that developers are accustomed to. So I pay a premium for fiber internet fast enough to enable remote work, and I'm healthy and don't need maintenance-level health care.

I wouldn't want to do this if my children were college age, if I were retirement age, or someone in my family had persistent health issues. But for right now, it's great. Especially for those who enjoy island hopping and beach bumming.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#152

Post by Shanea93 »

234dd57d2c8dba wrote: post #142
atmosx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... You're not living in France. There are many people who would rather be making 3 times less and living in France. It is a trade off, that's all there is to it, e.g. If you, God forbid, have get into a severe health condition in the US, you might very well be making 5x more, you're still going to get broke pretty soon because social healthcare is virtually nil.

That's the great thing about the internet, if you like France, stay in France! You can work anywhere. I prefer the USA compared to Europe because I can practice my favorite sport (competitive shooting) without any hassle. Each place has their pros and cons.

I've found that there are very few "remote-working" companies in the United States who consider applicants from outside of the US - most of them have an "must be eligible to work in the US" disclaimer.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#153

Post by Shanea93 »

cylinder wrote: post #100
sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

I agree. People stop reducing your life to dollars (or €). That said, I think the USD is propped up in ways that others are not due to its status in the world. They'd an advantage for some, certainly. And Euro is weakened by rest of EU, if Germany were standalone their currency would be higher than now.

As a European, I think of Europe as being similar to the United States: Each country is it's own state and part of a whole.

In my opinion, saying that if Germany were standalone they would have a stronger currency is the same as saying "If California were standalone they would have a stronger currency".

The US has its Mississippi, Europe has its Greece.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#154

Post by jimako »

plaguuuuuu wrote: post #73
nicomfe wrote: post #34

Developers in Australia and New Zealand are really well paid.

Still not paid nearly as much as US devs. Unless maybe I should start looking for my next job :|

Do you know that for a fact, or are you assuming that is the case? Developer salaries, especially in the non-cubicle-dweller sphere, are really VERY high. Of course, most of the jobs are in Sydney or Melbourne where the cost of living is also very high, even after taking into account the universal health care.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#155

Post by Veen »

wyclif wrote: post #151
Veen wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The holy grail is to geoarbitrage by getting paid by a company in a location that pays highly while living remotely somewhere the cost of living is much lower. Yes. I work remotely for a US company, and live in Hungary. I'm British. It's a great arrangement. Hungary is a modern country but much less expensive than the U.K.

I also work remotely for a US company, but live in the Philippines right now. It's quite inexpensive to live here on the US dollar. Now, the big difference between your situation and mine is that I'm in a developing country that is struggling to become modern in the sense you're referring to and that developers are accustomed to. So I pay a premium for fiber internet fast enough to enable remote work, and I'm healthy…

I think the infrastructure is a major reason to choose Eastern Europe. Internet speeds are actually better than they are in the U.K. I spent six weeks in Morocco last spring and it was a constant struggle to find consistent connectivity.

Healthcare is another reason: as a U.K. Citizen, I get free healthcare anyway, and that extends for most treatments to EU counties too. When I do have to pay for medical treatment, it's fast and low cost. I had to have a wisdom tooth removed and I was dealt with in a couple of hours at midnight on a weekend. Cost less than $150 including painkillers and antibiotics.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#156

Post by cr1895 »

phil21 wrote: post #135
atmosx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... You're not living in France. There are many people who would rather be making 3 times less and living in France. It is a trade off, that's all there is to it, e.g. If you, God forbid, have get into a severe health condition in the US, you might very well be making 5x more, you're still going to get broke pretty soon because social healthcare is virtually nil.

Someone making 3x (as a programmer) can very easily afford very high quality health insurance. When you have it, it actually does work. Chances are they are already covered by their employer though. The lack of "affordable" healthcare really isn't a concern for the six figure tech worker class - those salaries imply quality health insurance as part of the package.

Is it possible that due to some horribly unfortunate illness, one well-paid SV person loses their job? Let's say one has excellent insurance and a well-compensated job, but despite this fortune this person gets cancer and is out of work for a considerable time for medical reasons. Since California is an at-will state, this person may lose her job. Will she still have that great employer-provided insurance? Will the lack of affordable healthcare still not be a concern for her?

I think it's short-sighted to say that the lack of a social safety net is of no concern to a well-paid tech worker.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#157

Post by cr1895 »

234dd57d2c8dba wrote: post #144
sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

You act like everyone in the USA has to wear body armor, has to set broken bones themselves and lives in tent cities. I have amazing dental, health, and eyecare. Free routine health checkups such as physicals, heck I even get a free gym membership. I drive a 350HP luxury sedan. Oh and I've never shot anyone, had to shoot anyone, or been the victim of a crime other than petty theft where my car was broken into one tim…

>I think your media has drastically altered your perception of what America is and is not.

You're doing well for yourself, but aren't you also presenting an altered perception of America? Very, very few people in America are as fortunate as you.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#158

Post by cr1895 »

rev_bird wrote: post #62
schmichael wrote: post #33

I'm in the US and a friend just moved to The Netherlands to accept a much lower paying job. He swears he has more disposable income due to cheaper health care, Internet, transportation (no car required!), etc. The basic assertion being that the cost of living is higher in the US. I would love to see salary vs cost-of-living comparisons globally. I suspect this might account for the disparity, but I'm afraid I don't h…

Is/was your friend an American citizen? I've been fascinated by emigrating to Europe for a long time and am always looking for stories about how people pull it off.

I'll link you to a comment I made a few days ago about moving to the NL:

https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=13522661

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#159

Post by ThePhysicist »

sremani wrote: post #77
sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

>> university costs 150$ for 6 month. This is not a German miracle, its simple demographics, most of the Germans are in their productive years of 40s and 50s and their population in teens and 20s is tiny, so their investments are low even though at per-capita level they look tremendous. This is the reason why Germany's hope is automation. They are demographically not in a great place. of course, this will come home t…

So far population in Germany keeps increasing, as it is one of the most popular countries for immigrants worldwide (and I'm not talking about refugees), so there's a large influx of people from within the European Union as well as from outside of it. Currently there are around 200.000 more deaths each year than births, which is still easy to compensate through immigration. Concerning the birth rate Germany is maybe a bit ahead of the curve, but the problem is similar in most Western countries, even the US. Recently birth rates have been increasing again by the way, so it's not clear if the historically low rates will prevail in the long run.

Also, the fact that education is free isn't really related to demographics, in fact University education has always been free, and the only attempt to introduce a (very moderate) tuition fee in 2006 was fully reversed a few years later due to pressure from various organizations.

Re: Ask HN: Why do companies outside the US pay so much less?

#160

Post by charlesdm »

sigi45 wrote: post #55

I don't really care how much someone in USA earns. As a software engineere in germany you are earning good money. There are no killings in cities, affordable health care, high quality living standards, university costs 150$ for 6 month, no donald trump, 30 days real holiday (i take them, everyone does, every year), seldom over hours, parental leave. Btw. IT is more than google, apple, facebook and twitter. And no we…

You're right. But why not make use of the best of both worlds? If you can work remotely and make $100-150k a year working from Germany or France, then you get the benefits of living in Europe but with an equivalent US salary.

I know several developers who have tripled or quadrupled their after tax income, without having to work any harder.

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