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Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

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Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#151

There is no substitute for living in the country and avoiding your native speakers like the plague. Immerse yourself completely (take a few language courses, move in with locals, make an effort to avoid English speakers at all costs). Give yourself little challenges: Groceries, info about the train, museum, read a leaflet, book an activity, ask questions at a restaurant (even if you don't quite get the answer)... Peo…

I agree with everything you recommend, but it is possible to speak grammatically with near perfection much faster than years if you study the grammar. Finding the right grammar book/course may not be easy. I was lucking enough to go through the excellent German course at UCSB in the late '70s before I immersed myself. Getting all noun genders right in German is nearly impossible for a non-native speaker (even native speakers make mistakes). Plus when you study the grammar you can delight educated native speakers by pointing out how the colloquial diverges from the proper grammar.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#152
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One test of fluency would be to have the person watch a modern film in the language of interest and ask them to transcribe the dialogue into text and also describe in own words (in language of interest) what is going on in the movie. You can then put that person on a scale from 0 to 100 by comparing the score by a random sample of "known" native speakers. This test is nice because it probes many aspects of language:…

It really depends on the film though. There are family dramas I can understand 100% but I watch a movie with lawyers or science or high level government or military meetings and I'm lost.

Interesting. When watching movies in English as a native Spanish speaker it's the other way around, at least for me. It's much easier to understand a movie with plenty of scientists, intellectuals or government officials than one with average people, as those tend to use slang, colloquial expressions and Americanisms that they don't teach you in courses. In fact teenage flicks are probably the hardest genre to understand...

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#153

I'm surprised to see no mention of Kindles / ebook readers. I tried reading novels to improve my German, but the physical effort of switching to a dictionary (either physical or web-based) was enough to make reading a chore. With my Kindle, I've downloaded an English-German dictionary and some novels, and now when I don't know a word I just tap it (well, kinda hold my finger down in a ZX81 fashion) and a translation…

Just to clarify - do you now buy ebooks in German?

Do you have any recommendations for good books in German for beginners? I've tried buying kids books (Harry Potter etc), but even those are far too difficult.. the "clickable" dictionary sounds like it would resolve my issues though.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#154
WHAT IS FLUENT

First, you have to define what you mean by "fluent". There are several proficiency scales that may provide some useful insight:

- Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/linguistic/cadre1_en.asp)

- ACTFL proficiency guidelines (https://www.actfl.org/publications/guidelines-and-manuals/ac...)

- Interagency Language Roundtable scale (http://www.govtilr.org/)

Here is a quick-and-dirty self evaluation that can give you an idea of the range of what "fluent" can mean (http://www.govtilr.org/Skills/readingassessment.pdf).

WHAT LEVEL OF PROFICIENCY DO YOU WANT

The next question you have to answer is what proficiency level are you aiming for.

Most of the resources you listed are fairly good at getting a learner to a low level of proficiency (CEFRL A2, ACTFL Novice High, or ILR 1). Just try one or two and find the one you like doing (I am a fan of Duolingo, but ymmv). This level is roughly "survival mode" language (e.g., basic introductions, basic getting around and doing things, short and simple small talk). If your goals are higher than that, then then the process is less transparent, but it mostly involves working with authentic native materials (texts, videos, audios, etc.) and learning through interaction with those materials. Note that it is almost impossible to get beyond a very low level of proficiency with books alone -- the scope of language that would need to be covered gets too large too quickly. As your proficiency level increases, language learning texts become reference sources rather than primary sources of learning.

The steps of fluency roughly look something like this (using ILR scale for simplicity):

- Memorized words and phrases (ILR 0+).

- Short, simple sentences (ILR 1). Many/most Americans I know consider this to be "fluent".

- Basic paragraphs (ILR 2).

- Extended prose (ILR 3).

Most of the suggestions I see in this thread focus on ILR 0+ and ILR 1. There is an entire world of language and language learning beyond that. Note that I stopped at ILR 3 -- that's the level at which a person can fully function at a professional level in most contexts. Day-to-day life is largely conducted at the ILR 1+/2 level.

WHAT SKILL

How do you want to use the language? The four skills are reading, listening, speaking, and writing. The first two are receptive skills that develop faster than their productive skill counterpart. Note that materials that are really good for developing one skill (e.g., reading) might be much less effective or even slightly counterproductive for learning another skill (e.g., speaking). That said, it is usually good to develop all skills at least somewhat while focusing on the skills you are most interested in (i.e., if you want to read, don't just read -- learning some speaking and listening will help the development of your reading).

HOW MUCH TIME

Another question is how much time do you have to dedicate to learning the language. Some languages are more linguistically distant from your native language than others, and the more distant languages take longer to learn. Here is a scale used by FSI with languages and hours of instruction needed to get to ILR 3 in one skill (usu. in speaking):

http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/lang...

Note that the range of time required is large -- 600 hours in 6 months for Spanish or French, but 2200 hours in ~20 months for Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. To put that in perspective, when a talented learner of Spanish is functioning at a full professional level, an Arabic learner who started at the same time will typically be functioning at a touristy sentence level.

BASICS OF PROCESS

Maybe this is a tl;dr. I am not sure that it makes sense without the above context. Note that at any time, traveling to or living in a place where the language is spoken will help tremendously. Also note that having a native informant can be very useful -- italki is a great resource for native informants.

1. Assuming you want to learn a relatively commonly taught language (e.g., something like Spanish or Korean rather than something like Xhosa or Igbo), pick any learning source that you like and stick with that. You will learn the sounds and script of the language as well as memorize basic words and phrases. You will eventually be able to create short, simple sentences that may or may not sound native-like. This is about ACTFL Novice or ILR 0+ or 1 level.

2. Start looking at level-appropriate native texts, and use learning texts as references rather than primary sources. Lower-level texts might be things like ads, announcements, or parts/clips from videos that cover casual conversation. Higher-level texts might be newspapers, non-fiction books, most general interest TV shows (i.e., not ones on opinionated and/or abstract topics like politics or religion). Flashcards can be useful (esp. for specialized vocabulary in a field you are interested in), but you will want to move away from flashcards and memorization gradually. You will need to immerse yourself in the language as much as possible to approach full functionality. This does not require you to be in a place where the language is spoken, but that usually helps a lot. This will get you to the ACTFL Intermediate or ILR 2 level.

3. To go beyond step 2, you will largely need to start functioning like a native. Your day-to-day socializing and media consumption will be almost entirely in the target language. The reference texts you typically use will be the ones that are written for native speakers of the language you are learning (e.g., a Japanese-Japanese dictionary). This is ACTFL Advanced or ILR 3 level.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#155
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a guy who grew up in French immersion schools in Canada, I consider myself to be fluent in French, although my grammar isn't quite perfect. I don't mentally translate it to English in order to understand it, at any rate. Recently, I took a short trip that included a few days in Paris, and I made a point of defaulting to French when starting conversations. However, for the most part, as soon as a French person real…

>I wonder if this is unique to the culture of France, or at least Paris, that they do not like to hear their language from a foreigner? Maybe the language is part of a group identity, used to identify locals who can be trusted to follow local customs? It was a little saddening. I'm sorry to hear that. As a Parisian, I don't think this had anything to do with protecting an identity, rather we're just as happy to pract…

Haha, I never even considered that angle. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. Paris was amazing, and the people were merveilleux :)

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#156
post #19

I learned to speak French starting from scratch in my 30s, while living in the US. I speak it well enough to enroll in an easy college-level course intended for native speakers[a] or to work professionally[b], although either experience would be painful at first. For me, the process occurred in three phases: 1. Bootstrapping to the point where I could kinda-sorta read books and kinda-sorta carry on conversations. I p…

What French TV shows did you enjoy? I've been looking for some to watch to improve my listening skills.

Scène de ménage is pretty fun, Golden moustache is a YouTube channel that makes really fun stuff, they even have English subtitles. A few films are also worth watching: les visiteurs and intouchable. I can't think of anything else now.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#157
Be passionate about the cultures of the countries that speak this language, and read the products of these cultures - articles and books about their peoples, histories, traditions, world views, current events - in that language. This is how I learned English - from the age of 17 onwards I've been passionate about Anglo-Saxon cultures, histories and societies (in particular about the United States) and have widely read about them, in english.

I'll grant you that this is easier if the language you want to learn is spoken in a large, complex country or countries - such as the English, Mandarin, or Spanish.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#158

There is no substitute for living in the country and avoiding your native speakers like the plague. Immerse yourself completely (take a few language courses, move in with locals, make an effort to avoid English speakers at all costs). Give yourself little challenges: Groceries, info about the train, museum, read a leaflet, book an activity, ask questions at a restaurant (even if you don't quite get the answer)... Peo…

This is pretty much how i learnt Spanish.

I few more tips that helped me a lot improving after reaching a basic level:

Besides talking/listening as much as possible in the foreign language, also try to think in it. Not mentally switching between languages made conversations much more fluent and pleasant. Start with basic things like planning a day trip.

Ask people to actively correct you if you're wrong. I had and still have the problem, that my Spanish is good enough, that people understand what I want to say, but because of that, they usually don't bother correcting me.

Focus a bit on pronunciation and language "melody". E.G. In my experience in Latin America, people who are not used to hearing foreigners accents, might not understand what you are saying although your grammar is perfect. A well pronounced "me not good" can often be better.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#159
post #56

I think the guy from fluentforever has the general pattern down correctly: 1) learn phonetics and pronunciation 2) learn a base of of the most common words (he has a list of 625 words, I think wikipedias "simple english" word requirements would be another good source). Do this with anki. 3) start studying grammar 4) move onto native materials (while continuing with anki) I also think that most people massively underr…

This is a fairly good basic guide for developing low-level proficiency. This type of method is good for learning the language needed to get around in a country in which the language is spoken as well as engage in some casual small talk.

I discussed the issue of proficiency levels in quite a bit of detail in my response :

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12719463

You mention a few points about memorizing vocabulary:

> The rate you tend to be taught vocabulary in college level courses is crazy low.

This is absolutely correct in most courses in the US. That said, most people I have know who went on to work in the foreign language they learned in school spent a lot of time learning beyond what was required for class.

> at only 15 words a day you could deeply learn ~5400 words a year with anki

This is largely a trap. At approximately 1000-2000 words in most languages, it is important to make a gradual shift from memorization tasks to fluency tasks. Memorization can be great to review learned vocabulary and/or to learn and review technical vocabulary, but most of the learning time should be spent immersed in authentic target language (e.g., reading content by native speakers for native speakers, watching TL videos, etc.). There are no shortage of situations where a person will know the word/phrase for manifold or nuclear non-proliferation treaty, but they will not have the discourse skills to use these words in a meaningful way.

Have you used this level of memorization successfully? If so, what other language tasks were you engaging in at the same time? I am genuinely curious -- a clean way to shift from high levels of memorization to higher levels of functional fluency is not a fully cracked nut.

Re: Ask HN: To those who became fluent in a second language, what did you do?

#160
My story was back in school, and I had never spoken Spanish (but I'm french so they both have Latin origins). I started going out with this girl that was from the Canary Islands, she was fluent in english se we could have just talked in that, but I decided to ask her: "Let's only ever speak in Spanish, and if I don't understand something, first try and explain in Spanish, and if I still don't get it, switch to English".

It worked miraculously, within 1 month I could speak good enough spanish, and by the second month I could go to Madrid and speak with anyone on the street.

It's surprising how effective it is, I even use to catch myself thinking in Spanish.

I think the best strategy is total immersion, however you can achieve that. It takes effort and dedication, but not longer than a few months for a similar language to yours, probably 6months to a year for something harder like chinese or arabic.

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