141–150 of 195 posts
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BATNA is kind of a dog whistle that this is a slighty hostile business deal. Hostile under the hood. Smiles and handshakes on the surface.
That is every negotiation I’ve ever seen, frankly. What else would you expect? Friendly tends to be called ‘charity’
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Yeah. Nah that makes you sound silly (at least for software jobs) unless there is a good reason for it, like currency conversions or peverse tax incentives. There is a tiny chance that asking for 133700 might get a smile at a smaller tech focused company though.
Worked for me at a large bank.
If it worked I wonder if it worked as a shibboleth.
The most important part of negotiation: Having an offer in the first place. Unfortunately, I and a dozen other software devs (all of whom I know personally, and all of whom are amazing) are not getting any interviews, much less offers. None of us have ever experienced a drought like this before, either. So... ??? Thankfully, we're all still currently employed.
Any thoughts on root cause from your perspective? I've been on the other side of the table recently, and I agree it feels like a buyer's market. But it still took a while to find good candidates, and a lot of candidates showed up to interviews weirdly unprepared on even the basics. If it's a drought for you, then I'd have to add: It seems like an especially weird drought, as well. Supply and demand seem to be doing o…
There is definitely a down turn, because before you didn't need to be a good candidate, whereas now only good candidates are getting the interviews and ultimately the jobs but historically it still seems better than the downturns in 03 and 09.
I usually did this in the past, and it has worked every time so far (four times). Not in the US, this from Switzerland. I think of a number I want to earn in the new job. For example, if I would currently make 100k, I say I currently make 115k in my current role, and then they offer 120k. I accept, done. I did this after a bad experience. Made-up numbers. They offer me 80k, I already make 90k, I say I already make mo…
Lying about previous salary is not illegal in the U.S. but it will probably cause you to lose your offer if the employer finds out (and there are ways they can check it). And there’s no reason to do it. Negotiation is about what you will bring to the new company, and how much that is worth to them. Your old salary is irrelevant. If you want 110k just say that. If they ask what you made before, you can say something l…
Agreed that it's best not to give false information but you can also respond with something like, "What is your budget for this position?"
It makes it obvious -- at least, it should -- that you know they're only asking, as patio11 puts it, as an attempt to get you to compromise your negotiating position.
Giving the number and calling it out as low isn't a bad idea, just offering another for those who would prefer not to give a number at all.
The most important part of negotiation: Having an offer in the first place. Unfortunately, I and a dozen other software devs (all of whom I know personally, and all of whom are amazing) are not getting any interviews, much less offers. None of us have ever experienced a drought like this before, either. So... ??? Thankfully, we're all still currently employed.
I’m from France where the market is still tense, so I have hard times understanding whether it’s a general trend or a local problem: - How do you know it’s not just your surroundings (technologies, skills, area) which are dry? - Are you maybe getting aged? (The programmer market is very ageist, hopefully I’m not turning the knife into the wound, but I’m not young either) and maybe you are experiencing the dry part of…
Normal office jobs don't bring the value that STEM jobs do, that's why STEM jobs command more money. It's like comparing doctors to other careers and being surprised that doctors get paid more.
I am a generalist. Not once in my twenty years of experience have I met anyone like me. I can write firmware just as well as I can design and implement UX and UI. Heck, I can design circuits or even products in fusion 360. Where are all these so called generalists? If you mean “fullstack”, that is only a small fraction of software, and the bar has lowered a lot since JavaScript has become ubiquitous (so you only need…
i have 35+ years. Been quite a few places and hats. Dozens of languages, assemblers, client/server, UI+UX, Prolog, hardware down to transistors, even mechanics ; methodologies and cultures, ..., you-name-it. i bet my cv is too-long-didnt-read.
And Noone gives a damn. They all look for their 3y "senior js dev" and don't see anything else. And those "seniors" grow on trees anyway.
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I can do all these things too, and learn more, but without recent professional experience on the resume, it’s not generally known or believed. (Part of the problem is that interviewers default to disbelief these days.) No one is knocking on my door looking for generalists, and a large majority of job listings are short-sighted on specifics. i.e. no one cares about my computer architecture, QA, or sysad chops.
The bulk of my nest egg comes from equity. As you grow you find that the more of a generalist you are the smaller a company you should be at to maximize your impact. As a company grows the roles get pigeonholed further and further, diminishing the value of your generalist skillset. The main antidote to this is to be higher up in the org, but that usually doesn’t happen organically over a generalist career (you have t…
Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…
> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…
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Because it matters that the BATNA is outside the negotiation.
Why does that matter? I would like to see a sentence or scenario where “BATNA” is not interchangeable with “alternative” or “option” or some other synonym. I read the Wikipedia page, but I’m still unclear what information I gain from BATNA over just “best alternative” or “second best option/choice”.
Recruiter: The offer is $100k.
Me: I want 120k and WFH.
Recruiter: I checked with the manager. The best we can do is either 120k but you show up every day or 90k remote.
Me: I'm already paid 110k and work remote. Sorry.
Recruiter: Oh, alright. We can't afford that. We'll continue our search with other candidates. Thanks for your time.
Both "options" presented by the recruiter are "alternatives" and they're both "negotiated agreements" (i.e. a meeting in the middle).
BATNA is short for what you get when negotiations fail and you walk away with no deal. (In this case, staying at the 110k remote job is one party's, the other party's is to keep interviewing more candidates.)
I had once had this aversion to neologisms for the sake of them too. Then I took some math classes and understood that saying "ring" is better than saying "commutative group with multiplication satisfying the following axioms...". Ultimately, it's helpful to invoke words that a group of people commonly understands, even if it seems to the uninitiated that it's saying nothing of importance.
The word "BATNA" is used a lot in discussions on negotiations. These books are full of tips on thinking about/finding out your counterpart's BATNA, coming to the negotiation table with a strong BATNA, conveying your BATNA to the other person, etc. In this context, the word/acronym conveys a very specific meaning that unspecialized English words like "option" and "alternative" don't capture.
Just today a recruiter called me and told me about a job that I think could be a good fit for me, and I do intend to interview for that. I hate negotiations. So I'll be frank. I was already frank with the recruiter today: I love my current job, on Mondays I can't wait to get to work. Moving to another company entails risk. I need to be compensated for that risk, so I don't intend to even interview if they can't offer…
HR really likes folks like you, because you're selling your services at a discount. I got one FAANG to increase their offer to 2.5 times the original amount. I'm fine with taking a bit of heat from the team if I get paid that much.