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Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#141
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also known as the longest description of stockholm syndrome known to man Periodic reminder that “Stockholm Sybdrome” was invented, with no clinical basis whatsoever, by someone responsible for a use of excessive violence by law enforcement as a means of leveraging cultural misogyny and public trust in credentials to deflect criticism of the violence they had counselled, so metaphorical references to it that don’t m…

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! But what would you put in the database? A NULL? A special fuck-it value?

A trigger on a timer that notifies the fuck-it-provider (email, calendar entry, text message, whatever) that they need to go back and enter a value.

Honestly this sort of deferred validation exists as a standard feature of certain modes of data intake that are often criticized for same, for example paper forms (the "required" fields can be left blank), or creating support tickets via email (required fields stay null until an agent updates the ticket via web UI). At some point additional round trips may occur to pay back this debt, but debt is a powerful tool for that person in the field who needs to move onto other things until the dust settles and they can pay it back.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#143
post #12

Here you go, from a UK protest against a programme for automatically grading students. If I remember correctly, there were street protests across the UK. https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/129527788941230489... https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/feb/18/the-studen...

related, people were pretty angry about covid-era remote exam proctoring / goguardian-style spyware

there was some pretty serious protesting against honorlock at my school cause it's invasive shady shit nobody should have to use. no actual demonstrations though since a lot was zoom at the time (and also bc signing a petition worked fine).

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much same argument could be said against checklists No, the same argument most certainly cannot be made against useful patient safety tools like simple checklists. Not only are they useful, they are simple and integrate seamlessly with pretty much any workflow without obstructing them. Meanwhile poorly designed software can go so far as to actively impede the work being done which I have no doubt is the case…

> No, the same argument most certainly cannot be made against useful patient safety tools like simple checklists. The same things were said when checklists were introduced to surgeons. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5885453/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/checklists-and-culture-in-m... https://hbr.org/2019/05/how-one-health-system-overcame-resis...

I said rigid computer software controlling humans is a violation of human dignity. Nobody ever said that about checklists. I'll never understand the resistance to them, they're extremely useful tools.

Your article touches on an interesting point:

> I also think this culture is generational

> my experience with younger doctors in training is that they readily, even eagerly, adopt systems that help them avoid mistakes.

> They never knew a day when medicine was not so horrifically complex and ever changing that physicians could not use some external help to aid their inadequate brains.

Certainly matches my experience at least. I will use literally any resource I can to prevent mistakes of any sort. Computers are a huge force multiplier as everyone here knows. My computer knowledge is extremely useful in this field. Just being able to touch type swiftly already gives me enough of an edge.

I refuse to accept poorly designed software getting in the way of work. I don't know how this Epic software works but where I work using an EMR system has been a terrible experience every single time. They fail at every usability principle that's ever been posted and discussed here on HN. Last month I dealt with one shitty system that had 2 second latency while typing, nobody was able to get any work done and all the problems went away after they all fell back to writing notes in Word or even Notepad. I actually debugged and fixed the problem in a couple hours but at that point nobody really gave a shit anymore because they had already moved on with their lives.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#145

There was a case more than 20 years ago of a similar revolt against a Canadian hospital's automated drug dispensing machine that would only let nurses withdraw the exact dose of medicine a patient needed in a short window around when patient was supposed to take each dose. It was so bad it got written up into an academic article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016224390202700...

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#146

There was a case more than 20 years ago of a similar revolt against a Canadian hospital's automated drug dispensing machine that would only let nurses withdraw the exact dose of medicine a patient needed in a short window around when patient was supposed to take each dose. It was so bad it got written up into an academic article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/016224390202700...

> they resented features that controlled their time and their autonomy Of course. Nobody likes being controlled by software. The computer is supposed to obey us, not the other way around. Software controlling humans is a violation of basic human dignity.

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#147
2 things will make this happen:

1. rapidly deteriorating quality of software; 2. The goal of software is shifting from actually solving problems and simplifying workflows to doing data farming and enforcing workflows for people who like control

Lately I am fighting with few organisations who claim they can't do that because their IT system "doesn't have this selection therefore we can not do that" although they are legally obligated to do so.

People are becoming extremely reliant on all sorts of software and amend their own beliefs to adjust to what the IT system tells you.

If you don't find this trend at least severely concerning, I am not sure what it.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#149
post #26
post #13

Secondary to the question, but I live right by the Epic campus and use the Epic MyChart platform to communicate with the University of Wisconsin health system. It is phenomenal as a patient; I can handle all billing, message any doctor I've seen, view test results as soon as they're uploaded, etc. Recently I saw the results of some bloodwork in the ER before the nurses had time to come and tell me about it. (The UI/U…

Now proceed to imagine that software being shoehorned into a healthcare system where many aspects of the US healthcare system are impossible to fill out at the care provider side, because they don't exist in the society model. (Let's be honest, you guys have opted for a model which have several very distinctive features in an international comparison). And I'd be surprised if the Norwegians didn't already have the po…

There are a couple of use cases that the new platform is solving, that were not straight-forward in the old system. Primarily the fact that your GP/family doctor and the hospital system did not have access to a common set of health records, they had to send specific requests for copies back and forth. As an example, when you're pregnant you get this special paper booklet where all your information gets recorded by GP/ultrasound/midwife/etc., and when you go to give birth you have to bring this booklet and give it to the midwife so they can see your pregnancy-related health records.

But we have had for a long time a website called "Helsenorge" where you can log in and access most of your health records. For example during covid this was used to give you PCR test results and that worked flawlessly, you get an SMS notification when you have updates to see.

So a big part of the "why on earth are they using this Epic software" sentiment is the feeling that we would be much better off by extending the Helsenorge system to do what we need. Especially since it's only a small part of the country going with the Epic system, and other parts will run other systems - a legacy of the previous privatisation-trigger-happy government.

There are also a lot of obviously broken things on the end-user side in Epic Mycharts. For one, you cannot change the language in the app, it is tied to your phone system language. So if you're Norwegian but prefer to use Android/iOS in English, you're stuck with poor translations to English that you have to guess-translate back again to Norwegian.

The app needs a new login after 10 minutes of inactivity, and this login is using a semi-complicated Norway-specific MFA called BankID that is run by the banking sector, so the login flow takes about a minute to complete. This means you can't actually get push notifications from the app, since it's never logged in while running in the background. So you get SMS and/or email notifications instead.

There is a lot of cruft related to insurance and billing stuff you have to scroll through in the menus that will never be useful to anyone in this country, and nobody understands why they can't just hide those buttons.

There are three different types of messages you can send - Letter, Question and Message - nobody knows what is the difference and one of them redirects you to the other when you start to compose something.

When you go to view your health records summary, there is a big text box at the top which says "Take care, the results here might be displayed in a mixture of Norwegian and American formats" - they have obviously not learned the lessons of the Mars Climate Orbiter failure. For instance it says "Marital status: Gift" on my summary.

To access my children's health records I had to send Proxy Data Requests for each one, which went through a rather complicated login flow every time. Then after three weeks I got a message from some random person saying I have access, apparently there are some poor souls sitting somewhere and manually verifying that yes, this person is the child of that person, even though that information is already in the Helsenorge database.

All in all it seems that either the Epic system is such a horrible pile of fragile spaghetti code that nobody dares to touch it and adapt it to our use case, or we are simply such a small customer that they can't be arsed to fix our woes.

It kinda feels like when you are using any product from Google or Microsoft, only in this case you're paying Microsoft a couple hundred million to adapt the software to your organization and still have that feeling.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#150
If I recall correctly, the book "The Toyota model" there was a quote saying "Toyota is not an IT company, we are a car maker" - this was the reason why they rejected using IT systems for many many years, simply focusing on physical kanban boards in the factory etc. etc.
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