Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

news.ycombinator.com

141–150 of 1001 posts

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#141
The amount of slacking your allowed to get away with depends greatly on your job/boss/organization.

If you're a slacker, almost everyone around you knows.

The usual reasons I've seen for keeping slackers around include:

1. maintaining resources like budgets and office space

2. it hard to fire and rehire a position just because someone is a slacker. If HR thinks you are able to get by with a person slacking, then they will let you fire the slacker and not let you rehire someone else.

3. You could always end up with a worse employee. I'd personally rather work with someone who was predictably slow at working, but was otherwise a good employee than chance having hiring someone who has poor hygiene and body odors (usually a heavy smoker, who doesn't regularly bathe or wash their clothing, that douses themselves in musky cologne)

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#142

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

I agree, I used to think I was like OP, coasting in between being quite productive. One day I took a bath, ended up thinking about my ticket, got out of the bath and did the ticket in an hour. The thinking time was definitely work just not in the traditional sense. And yes I could have done the ticket without the bath, it may even have taken the same time, but the code wouldn't have been as clean and there would have…

Well, not only was the code clean, I imagine you were clean too!

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#143

Yes, most people do very little to nothing at their jobs, in all professions where it's possible to get away with it

I know folks in non-tech office jobs who say it's easy to exceed typical metrics for their department in, at most, two hours of actual work per day. Doesn't even require that those be especially frantic or hard-working hours themselves. Just a couple normal-paced hours and you're at the front of the pack for the day.

This exists at the other end, too: I've seen a lot of people in management positions who had enough assistants that I can just about guarantee their average workday is also about two hours of actual work, though with some very long days and some near-zero-work days. I've seen founder-CEO types who know (and are) the right people so it's easy to get early funding for their ventures, and make an "executive assistant" for that company (so, paid with investor money) a very early hire so they can get away with barely doing any work on it (they're always doing like 5 things at once, if you check their LinkedIn, and that's how: they're putting very little time in to any but maybe one of them at any given time)

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#144
In big offices, lying often happens due to:

- you don't know how much the others are doing so why putting more effort (humanly naive classical economic strategy)

- things are opaque, people may not know what you do, and how hard it is.. if they say something and are wrong, they're reputation is tainted, only your superiors are responsible for this but they may be busy (or faking too)

- some people will willingly delay work, they don't like it, there's too much, so they'll stash tasks until people come and ask, then they'll pretend to be overwhelmed with so many things (unless management has clear views of what's going on, you're back to point 2).

- oh and often people will act as if they're super tense and busy and having the worst job in the building. Just before going back to their office, and sitting watching netflix on their phone.

Another thing, have you ever noticed people slowing things down ? and impeding you to improve things ?

ps: I'm deeply hurt by testimony like these (you're not the first one I read), having been in chaos and near homelessness ready to work twice the amount for min wages, it's unbearable. When you know that this happens, it's near impossible to not hate HR/interviews.

pps: few places where this can't really occur: public facing jobs, you don't want to look like a moron, or a lazy douche so you have no choice. Hospitals are probably free of that too. retail. There's a natural flow of timely tasks there.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#145

Just the other day I met a friend, a fellow developer. We both worked on fairly large projects with dozens of developers. We came to conclusion that on projects beyond certain size in certain type of corporations it’s actually in nobody’s interest to ever finish the project. That would kill the cash cow. So managers in those companies love people like OP, because they help them achieve the same goal: never achieve th…

Except the sponsors of the project that pay to put food on everyone’s table?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#146
post #103
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their adv…

>but it's that getting something cool done is rewarding in its own right. Why don't they want that feeling… ?

Cant speak for everyone, but in my case, Ive done the grind to get something cool done in my younger days. Ive designed, programmed and tested a differential braking system for a sizeable unmanned aircraft technology demonstrator, from hardware to drive the master cylinders, to the software with control of stepper motors following dynamic control laws, and then sat in a control room at a US Air Force base and watched the traces as the real thing was landing and purely steering with the brakes after touchdown (to test nose wheel actuator failure).

At my current company, when I got hired, I specifically said upfront that my goal is just to become a subject matter expert, and to have a more consistent and chill workload. I did what I was supposed to, nothing more, but I did it correctly, and put in extra hours when crunchtime before deadline came. I got promoted to senior after 4 years, and now Im pretty at very minimal hours of actual work per week.

But, because Ive been on the same team for so long, can answer questions about the entire tech stack, I can debug things, I am happy to sit in meeting and talk about high level things when managers don't want to, so my value is still fairly high. I no longer care to really put in hours to build something cool, instead I am focusing on things I didn't have time to do when I was younger and grinding, like travel and fitness.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#147

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

Adding my voice to this one. I think a lot of work 'normal people' i.e. the PMs the non-technical management, the sales people etc. really don't get how we techies work. Because they have to do 'active' work all day long to keep on top, they think everyone is like that, where in reality we are really efficient in short bursts. I can ponder a deliverable for days and then just churn it out over a few hours, only taking breaks for coffee intake/discharge. The normals keep asking me 'how far have you got with X' during the whole period, and they don't seem like it when I say 'I'm thinking about it, but I've not done anything yet'.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#148

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

It is SHOCKING beyond words to me what accepted dogma it is that the human resources/devs only work on one thing at a time, they start at the beginning, plan, write, test, & code review the thing, and then move on.

It's a huge waste of human potential. Background processing is vital. Getting hit by the various silly hurdles in the path to shipping- having to go from the elation of getting something done to having to switch to an entirely different set of less fun tasks to get it shipping. Yet our processes, our industrial processes, are oriented towards assurity, towards treating us "human resources" like machines, to making us complete full units of work.

It's hard for me to tell exactly where this sprung up from, how it is so deeply deeply rooted. I tell my managers outright I think it's a wasteful & outright damaging practice, but that I understand that it's the expectation, that every other company acts like fools too, not just them. I don't argue, but I am quite clear that you will get much much much less out of me when I don't have some autonomy, when I have to drag, roll, push, row, swim each rock, one at a time, from end to end. Again, I'm not sure how such a demeaning & menial form of completing single-task-at-a-time happens, especially when no one in management or upper ranks is expected to live like this. My top theory is just that it's convenient for management purposes. That company's are bad at assessing progress, that we're afraid of situations that aren't ultra-well scheduled & predictable, and that we treat programmers like cogs in a machine because we're too afraid to try for better.

Creative procrastination is amazing. Not only are programmers out doing great things, but the task they're more obligated to do goes from irrelevant & stupid to something they just don't ever want to think of again. The internal pressures builds over time, even for the irrelevant everyday crap of development, until we're finally jazzed to just get it done. By procrastinating, we bank up some motivation. And we've gotten a lot of passive processing in. Productive procrastination is one well-known example, but I feel like it's just the tip of the iceberg. Having some different tasks to switch between, having a wheelhouse of obligations, allows enormous relief, allows a much higher average output to be maintained, in my view. I'm kind of in a lull of personal projects right now, because I completed some stuff, and don't have a lot of in-flight options to pick up & work between. Everything feels so slow & getting going again has been such a chore, I feel it so much. Being able to trade off, switch around, chase what feels good is a huge huge productivity increase.

More than anything what amazes me is how conventional & dogmatic companies are. They seemingly all chase the same malgining evil controlling exploitation of human-resources, and not a once has a company seemed to even understand that there are trade-offs. The whole industry is exactly the same; controlling & top-down, one-at-a-time. The people who invented Amdahl's law, surprisingly, seem utterly unable to grasp it's application to humans & our motivations. We all have diverse & wide execution units, but we are treated like in-order single-stage processors. If this were just the predominant way of treating engineers/human-resources, I'd find it unfortunate, but that it is almost entirely the rule, that it is universally expected, that there are so few systems or experiments for doing anything else: the status quo is pathetic & cruel, and lacks even the basic legitimacy to have explored other ideas.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#149
Based on my experience, this is not common. I have managed about 200 people in my career and have had to deal with this a few times.

The basic strategy I've used is to write notes on every status update they give in the daily standups. The updates go right into our sprint planning tool. Then every day they are confronted with the fact that their prediction to, "Get it done today" failed to come true like six days in a row. They either realize the jig is up and get better or I fail to renew their contract if they're a contractor or manage them out/fire them if they're a full time employee.

I had one employee though that would do nothing for about 6 days in a row and then get two weeks of work done in a few days. I could work with that. And she only made like $75k per year (this was about 15 years ago) so it's not like she was getting rockstar salary.

Post reply on HN