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Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#141
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if all I see are nearly identical resumes, I assume the recruiter is just phoning it in. Could you explain what you mean by this? I don't quite understand the language.

Phoning it in means giving up on doing a good job, and just putting in the bare minimum effort to get the job done. It comes from the idea of phoning in rather than putting in the effort to show up in person. So in this case, they don't actually care about finding good (or underpriced ) candidates, they're just spamming a basic resume match.

+1

By way of example from the other side of the fence - my LinkedIn profile asks recruiters to state that they've read my pre-requisites for a role when they contact me. 90% don't do that (and clearly haven't).

The kind of recruiter that doesn't bother to read the candidate's profile is "phoning it in"

I delete all of those - the remaining recruiters are generally ok, though they're often offering roles that are trivially discoverable to anyone actively job hunting.

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understand that I'm not singling you out here because I see similar kinds of comments on lots of recruitment related threads on HN, but this comment: > My advice for engineers is: understand what manner of communication you most prefer, state this clearly whereever you have a profile and stick rigidly to this. There is really no reason why a recruiter should have your number, and if they do, no reason for you to answ…

I'll be blunt, I don't think this is true. I fully believe that forcing a recruiter to operate on your terms comes across as inflexible and I doubt they like it, but I don't think it will hurt your employability at all. If a company could afford to purge people for being skeptical of recruiters, they wouldn't be spending money on recruiters. Engaging in recruitment by definition means you don't have an adequate hirin…

It's possible this might vary by company or by recruiter.

We don't make much use of external recruiters for technical roles (there are a couple that we do use from time to time). We do talk to them about their candidates, and they have warned us off people they've spoken to who were rude or demanding.

We also have an in-house recruiter as part of our HR. In technology we don't often approach people directly (i.e., headhunt). I seem to recall we used it once for a leadership role a year or two back, but ended up hiring a referral instead. If you're demanding with our recruiter I may not even hear about it because they might reject you on my behalf (a decision that I will always support). But if you have been tricky to deal with, we'll certainly talk about it.

That doesn't mean we're completely inflexible either: we pick a time of mutual convenience to talk, but we are going to want to talk. Quite often people will want to talk to use to find out more about a role before they go into a formal selection process. Again, we schedule these at a time of mutual convenience. We often reschedule telephone and in-person interviews (not that we've been doing a whole lot of those for the past 15 months) at candidates request because life happens.

There seems to be some belief amongst a number of posters on this thread that the only or main reason we want to talk to you is so we can cut to a salary negotiation and hammer you down. That simply isn't true. Here are a couple of other important reasons we want to talk:

- We can learn a lot more about who someone is by talking to them than we ever can by email; the same goes in reverse. That call is as much about helping you figure out whether you want to proceed with your application as it is about us taking you forward.

- It's generally a lot quicker to deal with candidate questions on a phone call than it is in a potentially long email chain: I'd rather have a 10 minute call with someone than spend 30 minutes writing an email. This has benefits for both parties: both are usually busy. Time is often of the essence for both.

We often do not talk about salary at all in an initial conversation unless we're concerned that there's a significant mismatch in expectation: we don't want to waste anybody's time.

Again, let me reiterate the advice: don't be difficult. It doesn't matter whether you contacted them, or they contacted you: if you're really interested in the job, then be accommodating. This doesn't mean you can't come to some mutually convenient arrangement, but don't be a pain about it. If you're not interested then either ignore them (they won't take it personally, or even remember), or politely decline. You can even politely ask for more detail and politely decline if they're not forthcoming. That's fine, but there is no scenario in which it is beneficial for you to be difficult.

This advice holds true with every company I've worked for and every reputable recruiter I've worked with.

[This is not to say I've never lost my rag with a recruiter: I gave one a polite but firm telling off the other day because he kept phoning me to try to hawk candidates to me (yes, they can be as painful for hiring managers as for candidates). His line of thinking was that because he'd sent me an email in the morning saying he'd like to talk to me in the afternoon, my silence was a tacit approval for him to call me. It was probably the third time he'd called me when I was either in the middle of a meeting, or feverishly doing pre- or post- work between meetings, and I'd just had enough and pointed out to him that this was not OK. I still said please and thank you, and I did not shout or swear at him. I do get that pushy recruiters are annoying but this guy's behaviour represents only a tiny, tiny minority of my interaction with recruiters over the course of my career.]

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and when you are CTO, or running your own company, or you are development manager, you'll think "I wonder if I know any recruiters who make the effort to actually get people on the phone and make it happen?".

I'm a CTO and I don't wonder this. I wonder why recruiters: * Send through candidates that have nothing to do with our requirements. * Tell me a candidate is interested in a lower salary than they actually are. * Tell me they've phone screened a candidate with an expert and that they're excellent, but then within the first few minutes at interview it's obvious they can't code. * Lie about candidates, including modify…

You're using the wrong recruiters. You need an honest, no bullshit, recruiter like me who knows the technology. Like me.

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#144
post #68

God it really pisses me off when they find great people for my team. Even worse is when a recruiter finds me a well paid job that I like. I hate those jerks. Wasting everyone's time with wanting to "talk on the phone", trying to clarify details about my "skills" and "experience" or "salary expectation", ugh such pointless questions - can't they just send emails, which I can slam the "delete" key on?

Your sarcasm gets your point across but what I think you're maybe not seeing is that for a lot of people, dealing with recruiters is a complete negative. There are a lot—a lot —of shitty, slimy, unprofessional and rude recruiters out there. The number of actually-good recruiters is dwarfed by the teeming masses of bad recruiters. The vast majority of recruiters reading this probably think they're in the good minority…

I'd be astonished if more than a vanishingly small percentage of the shitty recruiters are reading this.

If you're a recruiter reading this you're probably one of the good guys just by virtue of making any effort beyond keyword scraping!

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#145
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understand that I'm not singling you out here because I see similar kinds of comments on lots of recruitment related threads on HN, but this comment: > My advice for engineers is: understand what manner of communication you most prefer, state this clearly whereever you have a profile and stick rigidly to this. There is really no reason why a recruiter should have your number, and if they do, no reason for you to answ…

You are replying to someone requiring recruiters to use their communication method. Not employers. Imagine I send you an email offering you the rough details of some "opportunity", and you reply with some questions, but then instead of answering those questions directly I reply to you with an invitation for a phone call and a refusal to give a direct answer via email/message. Now who is being entitled? You contacted…

Yes, but as an employer I use both external recruiters, as well as an in-house recruiter, and we all talk to eachother. Recruiters don't operate in a vacuum. It's really no skin off the recruiter's nose if you choose to be difficult: you just won't get any further. Remember that I'm using them to offload some of the considerable effort required to find good candidates who are worth talking to.

The context of the GP post is getting back to a recruiter to find out more about a job, which suggests you're at least interested in that job. If you are interested, you need to be at least somewhat accommodating.

Yes, they reached out to you, but now you're getting back to them? Why are you doing this unless you're interested?

If you're not interested, either ignore them or send a polite decline.

Expressing interest whilst simultaneously coming off as difficult and entitled does you no favours.

Recruiters will often have a bunch of people who get back to them to express interest for any given role and will, in addition, be responsible for multiple roles. Having a quick call with somebody is generally quicker than responding by email, which is probably the main reason they ask for a call. Doesn't mean you can't do the call at a time of mutual convenience - that's obviously fine.

> Moreover, unless your business is basic webdev or your skill requirements are very low, I have a hard time believing you are turning down lots of candidates. It's brutal out there for those trying to hire. This is definately not a buyers market, it's a seller's market. It may not be for long, but that's the current situation.

That might be true in your market: it is not in mine. You are, of course, entitled to believe whatever you'd like to.

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be blunt, I don't think this is true. I fully believe that forcing a recruiter to operate on your terms comes across as inflexible and I doubt they like it, but I don't think it will hurt your employability at all. If a company could afford to purge people for being skeptical of recruiters, they wouldn't be spending money on recruiters. Engaging in recruitment by definition means you don't have an adequate hirin…

It's possible this might vary by company or by recruiter. We don't make much use of external recruiters for technical roles (there are a couple that we do use from time to time). We do talk to them about their candidates, and they have warned us off people they've spoken to who were rude or demanding. We also have an in-house recruiter as part of our HR. In technology we don't often approach people directly (i.e., he…

I think we might be talking past each other. Sure, I'll talk, but you need to send me enough information for me to decide whether the job is interesting (salary range and job description at minimum) and whether you're trustworthy first.

> if you're really interested in the job, then be accommodating

Right, that's the point - I don't know if I'm interested until I have a fair amount of detail about the posting. If it can be communicated via email, it should be. I don't want information artificially withheld in order to bait me into a sales pitch, or for that sales pitch to be misrepresented as the type of discussion you're offering.

> There seems to be some belief amongst a number of posters on this thread that the only or main reason we want to talk to you is so we can cut to a salary negotiation and hammer you down. That simply isn't true.

Sure, but your written communication needs to demonstrate to me that you aren't one of those people, because most recruiters are.

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#147

I am on the other side of this. As a hiring manager using recruiters, I am annoyed by: - lack of diversity in candidates. (not just virtue signaling. if all I see are nearly identical resumes, I assume the recruiter is just phoning it in.) - candidates “just a little out of your price range” who are 30% over the top end of my budget. - “confidentially” telling me what other offers a candidate has because then I know…

The diversity thing is really hard to do anything about. I think I've seen maybe 10-15 relevant (in the loosest sense: person was a dev of some sort, not a career switcher) CVs from a woman over my entire career. And I did hire three of them, compared to dozens of men and thousands of CVs. Perhaps my estimate is wrong or something, it's hard to keep track of this number, but I do tend to give it an extra good look when it's a woman just because it's so rare.

I think it's the pipeline as well as selection: I work in finance and usually in smaller firms.

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#148

As a danish developer, recruiters are not that bad. They will usually start reaching out through LI, and will happily do the first part of the back and forth on text. I usually tell them I’m not interested in switching, but that I'd be happy to know what goes on in the industry. This usually leads to a phone call where I question them about the business, the job and what they have to offer. The one exception is, I us…

This is very interesting but I think culture is the key factor here as well. In UK, when I tried "to know what is going on in the industry" I was very close to be labelled as time waster.

I’m very up front about it - the first message I shoot back is “I’m not looking and I’ve committed myself to 3 years at my current position, but I’m always interested to know what moves if you still want to talk”. Some come back positive, some still try to win me over (surprisingly few) and a few declines when I’m not a potential lead :)

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible this might vary by company or by recruiter. We don't make much use of external recruiters for technical roles (there are a couple that we do use from time to time). We do talk to them about their candidates, and they have warned us off people they've spoken to who were rude or demanding. We also have an in-house recruiter as part of our HR. In technology we don't often approach people directly (i.e., he…

I think we might be talking past each other. Sure, I'll talk, but you need to send me enough information for me to decide whether the job is interesting (salary range and job description at minimum) and whether you're trustworthy first. > if you're really interested in the job, then be accommodating Right, that's the point - I don't know if I'm interested until I have a fair amount of detail about the posting. If it…

> I don't know if I'm interested until I have a fair amount of detail about the posting.

Typically recruiters are responsible for multiple roles, and will be dealing with an absolute hail of email. One learns by experience that a quick call is often a more efficient way of imparting information and dealing with follow-up questions than email.

Look, some recruiters are... quite unsavoury... and nobody's denying that, but if you've responded to them there's obviously enough in that first email/LinkedIn message to have whetted your appetite.

If you go back to them with questions they'll probably be more than happy to answer, but they're also probably going to want to do it on a call because it's just quicker and easier. Yes, quicker and easier for them. If you don't like that, just ignore them, or politely decline. There's no need to do more.

It's generally possible to figure out whether a recruiter is worth responding to at all based on their first message to you, just as it's generally possible to figure out whether a job applicant is worth talking to based on their initial application (doesn't necessarily mean they'll get the job, of course, because there will be multiple applicants at every stage of the process). I suppose this is a kind way of saying that if you're wasting your time with recruiters you're better off looking in the mirror and changing your own behaviour than you are complaining about the recruiters and trying to change them.

Re: Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

#150
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if all I see are nearly identical resumes, I assume the recruiter is just phoning it in. Could you explain what you mean by this? I don't quite understand the language.

Phoning it in means giving up on doing a good job, and just putting in the bare minimum effort to get the job done. It comes from the idea of phoning in rather than putting in the effort to show up in person. So in this case, they don't actually care about finding good (or underpriced ) candidates, they're just spamming a basic resume match.

I think there is more to the original comment than this though. I'm interested to know how they measure diversity when reading a CV and how they judge a recruiter to be "phoning it in" or not. I know what the phrase means - I just don't understand the meaning in this context.
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