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Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

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Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#141

Post by v64 »

skullt wrote: post #113
josephmosby wrote: post #28

Two books that really helped me were Nonviolent Communication (Marshall Rosenberg) and Radical Acceptance (Tara Brach). The specific techniques outlined in the books were helpful, but I benefited more from the mentality that you can communicate the same message in multiple tones and receive different results. Some of my colleagues have also done improv comedy courses and experienced the same outcomes. I also received…

Strictly taking everything people say at face value is great way to become somebody who "can't take a hint." The problem is that there are many things people want to communicate but would rather not say because they're likely to lead to uncomfortable situations. Suppose a coworker offers you mints or gum every time you speak to them. If you only take their words literally, you'll think, "Gee, what a generous person,"…

This goes both ways. If the well intentioned hint goes unnoticed and the halitosis continues to be an issue, then a more direct statement is in line. There are people who can't take a hint, and there are people who can't say what they mean.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#143

Post by adrianmonk »

AchieveLife wrote: post #60
nikk1 wrote: post #4

Definitely read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. However, just reading a book on this subject is not enough. You will actually have to apply the principles in your everyday life. Dealing with people is kind of like an art. And just like any art (like painting) you can only get better with deliberate practice. Doing this might feel a little uncomfortable at first, but it's how we grow as peopl…

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

There are people whose goal is to manipulate people. And such people are going to seek out techniques for influencing people, including this book. And such people are likely to at least be insufferably annoying if not downright untrustworthy.

But that doesn't mean that someone who seeks to deal constructively and genuinely with people can't benefit from a book of observations on how people work and what does and doesn't work when interacting with them.

Yes, it's possible to take it too far and develop a fake, unnatural persona based on rule-following. So don't do that. But the book isn't about that anyway. For example, one of the chapters is about learning to just admit it when you're wrong. I see that as something a mature person ought to be able to do, and it took me a long time to learn to practice that.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#144

Post by noelsusman »

pc86 wrote: post #95
hyperpape wrote: post #73

I'm surprised no one has made this distinction, but you're really talking about three kinds of communication: 1. Functional communication about the job you're doing 2. Social conversations 3. Office politics There is overlap: #2 will help grease the wheels for #1 and #3, while #1 becomes #3 when a situation is dysfunctional/you rise in the corporate hierarchy. Despite the overlap, these are fundamentally different th…

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but there is nothing dysfunctional about office politics. Politics is how you get something done with a large group of people who have different individual goals, that's it. It's a necessity for achieving something greater than any of those people could achieve on their own.

That's not how people typically use the phrase "office politics".

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#145

Post by madeuptempacct »

AchieveLife wrote: post #60
nikk1 wrote: post #4

Definitely read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. However, just reading a book on this subject is not enough. You will actually have to apply the principles in your everyday life. Dealing with people is kind of like an art. And just like any art (like painting) you can only get better with deliberate practice. Doing this might feel a little uncomfortable at first, but it's how we grow as peopl…

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

Absolutely this - it's in the same bucket as The Prince and 48 Laws of Power. Lot of hype, zero useful advice. Some books are worth the hype, e.g. The Art of War.

To the OP - in my experience, it's absolutely enough for a dev to be good to move up. That's the beauty of software development. Now, if you ever want to be a manager or a lead, it's definitely a different story.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#146

Post by adrianratnapala »

pc86 wrote: post #95
hyperpape wrote: post #73

I'm surprised no one has made this distinction, but you're really talking about three kinds of communication: 1. Functional communication about the job you're doing 2. Social conversations 3. Office politics There is overlap: #2 will help grease the wheels for #1 and #3, while #1 becomes #3 when a situation is dysfunctional/you rise in the corporate hierarchy. Despite the overlap, these are fundamentally different th…

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but there is nothing dysfunctional about office politics. Politics is how you get something done with a large group of people who have different individual goals, that's it. It's a necessity for achieving something greater than any of those people could achieve on their own.

> but there is nothing dysfunctional about office politics.

I think hyperpape was saying it is dysfunctional when "... functional communication" becomes office politics. E.g. if engineers have technical disagreement about, say, whether to use one or two thread pools in server XYZ, then they should be able to sort it out at the technical level.

Failure modes are when (a) someone decides to play politics in order impose their technical vision or (b) the technical discussion becomes a win-or-loose matter that somehow weighs on the balance of political power.

The bit about "rise in the corporate hierarchy" is because at high levels, you aren't making purely technical decisions; decisions will inherently involve steering people rather than things. That means it is right and proper for communication to deal with the political aspect that would be dysfunctional at a lower level.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#148

Post by BeetleB »

naeemtee wrote: post #106
_zskd wrote: post #72

I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta: >> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills? >> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be crazy…

> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice. I struggled with social anxiety for 10 or 15 years before I "cured" myself, and advice like this is what buried me. Reading books and going to a therapist can supplement your efforts, but if that's your main approach you're going to waste years - and when you talk, you're going to sound like a…

>Burying your head in books and overanalyzing your social interactions isn't going to solve your social anxiety. Go play soccer.

If yours had been the parent comment, I would have responded with:

>I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice.

Your approach is the approach that is the "usual" approach that friends and family suggest - and in my experience, it often fails. In fact, I would wager most introverts have already gone that route (be it voluntarily or involuntarily).

>Most self-professed "introverts", particularly developers, spent most of their lives playing video games and sitting indoors. They're not well-rounded people in the least.

I hate to use strong language, but this is ridiculous. Most professors are introverts, for example - and most did not play video games. (Not to put too much stock in Myers-Briggs, but INTJ, while being amongst the least common types, is the most represented in academia).

That's not to take away from the authenticity of your experience. But what works for you won't work for everyone. Perhaps not even most people.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#149

Post by BeetleB »

ThePadawan wrote: post #67
AchieveLife wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

I've often tried to find better methods of communicating with people, but I'm still struggling with one major problem: What do you do when someone literally does not react to anything you say in any way whatsoever? I could tell them "Yeah, X sounds like a great idea!" or "Please don't do that, I think X would be very harmful to the project", and their reaction would be the same "OK thanks, guess I'll go do X now". Th…

>I've often tried to find better methods of communicating with people, but I'm still struggling with one major problem:

It would help if you gave an idea on what you've tried.

As for your specific scenario, some points:

Don't have a telling posture. Even if you think it is a fact, present it with the posture of an opinion. "This is how I see it." Actively point out you may be wrong, and actively invite opposition "I'd like to hear other perspectives." You'll have to be sincere, because if people perceive you as the person who always wants others' opinions, but always dismisses them, people will very quickly stop offering them. I've seen this happen within a month of a new manager coming to our team.

Also, make sure you're asking open ended questions. Not questions that can be reasonably answered in a few words.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#150

Post by Namrog84 »

codebolt wrote: post #122
jimmy1 wrote: post #114

Disclaimer: This is my own personal advice. It is different from what has been commented so far, but hope it might offer a different perspective or angle. Don't believe your labels, even one's you give yourself. Why do you think you are introverted? Is it because you took some Carl Jungean-esque test like the Myers Briggs and it said you were? Is it because your parents and teachers always said you were "shy"? Is it…

Co-signing this advice. I was basically in the same shoes as the OP, being the quiet office weirdo for my first few years, usually getting very tense in meetings and so on. These days I'm effortlessly starting discussions, speaking my mind openly in meetings, etc, and have never had it better professionally or socially, at work or otherwise. I won't try to distill my personal transformation into a step-by-step recipe…

Also there are 2 sets of definitions I believe of introvert and extrovert. The traditional and the clinical one. I am not sure those are the right labels for the 2 interpretations.

And I think me and the 2 I've replying to all agree with the latter one. Which is independent of shyness or outgoingness. It's purely a mental recharge thing really. Do you feel like you need to be alone after a long time of being with other people.

This is different from the traditional view which is correlated with shyness vs outgoing charismatic view.

Also no one is ever just 1 or the other. But can be all of the above at various points at varying and ever changing degree.

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