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Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

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Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#131

Post by flashman »

arielm wrote: post #88

As a technical founder I actually face the issue on the other side, which is how to keep those that have been around for 5+ years challenged and motivated. Here are a few things I've learned that might help with perspective: 1. You shouldn't be afraid to ask for what you want. As a founder, it's tough to always know what goes on in everyone's mind. I try as much as I can but when I'm a part of the conversation I will…

"Just because you don't have the training doesn't mean you won't be an awesome manager."

While this is true, it's worth remembering that management isn't a promotion, it's a career change: http://fractio.nl/2014/09/19/not-a-promotion-a-career-change...

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#133

Post by bazookajoes »

dlandis wrote: post #102

> Where did I fail to claim my part when the company was growing? Seems like it is not too late; just talk to the CEO and VP of Engineering and say you want a new role created called Chief Architect or Principal Engineer. As employee #2, it seems perfectly fair that you should get some additional recognition above and beyond simply "developer". If they like you and want to keep you, then I think definitely they would…

This is the right move. If they say no, or don't come back with a compelling alternative this means that you don't have a strong enough relationship to be recognized for your potential future contributions. It is important that you are likely to only be recognized for your potential, not your past contributions.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#134

Post by marktangotango »

LunaSea wrote: post #125
marktangotango wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This x1000. The last thing you should do is withdraw, and leave everyone high and dry. I've seen this situation, where the 3 remaining of the original cohort, for some reason, resented the new CTO, and basically abandoned the company. Only reason they're still here is they have an ownsership stake and are friends with CEO. They could've been hugely impactful to the success of the company, but instead, they're sitting…

I don't understand why this attitude is a problem in this context. It's their last and only pressure point in the political game that happens in the company. If you don't feel that your skills are fairly compensated and you can't leave (due to contracting or vesting time) you don't have any other options.

Being a dick is not an option or a negotiation tactic, it is just that being a dick. Note I'm speaking to my experience, where tbe people in question do everything but actively sabotage the CTO in question.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#136

Post by vinceguidry »

nostrademons wrote: post #115
vinceguidry wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me awhile to realize that management is, generally, not a skilled profession. Not saying that certain skills can make you better or worse at it, but that you don't need them to be effective. In a skilled profession, not having them means all the difference. You can't wire up a house without the skills. You can't build a web app without knowing a whole lot of stuff, at least not within any time frame someone w…

You are describing bad management. You don't need skills to be a bad anything. There are plenty of bad programmers going around who don't actually have any useful skills either. There is a particular set of skills involved in not getting fired even though you don't actually have any skills. However, this skillset will not save you if the company institutes blanket layoffs or goes out of business, nor if you ever need…

Most companies have bad management. I would go so far as to call it the norm.

You're obviously better off with skills. I never said you weren't. But you don't absolutely need them to be an effective manager of other people's efforts. In fact one of the best ways is to just get the hell out of their way.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#137

Post by pjbrunet »

I would move on to starting the next business, but maybe you need the steady paycheck? You started company A, company B will be even better.

On a related tangent, I would love to know how someone in his shoes could get crowdfunded to start a new business. What do you advise? (Maybe I should start a new thread and ask.)

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#138

Post by vinceguidry »

arielm wrote: post #129
vinceguidry wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me awhile to realize that management is, generally, not a skilled profession. Not saying that certain skills can make you better or worse at it, but that you don't need them to be effective. In a skilled profession, not having them means all the difference. You can't wire up a house without the skills. You can't build a web app without knowing a whole lot of stuff, at least not within any time frame someone w…

As a founder I manage various teams full-time. I don't consider myself to be a manager because ultimately I don't report to anyone, but I disagree with most of what you're describing. Skills - You may have only worked with bad managers because to be a good manager, much like anything else, requires certain abilities. While some have those it's practice and experience that make you really good. > You can't wire up a h…

> Really? Don't you feel behaving in such a way won't help the company you're helping build?

You're helping the company by meeting your expectations and goals, which are set by your higher-ups who have clawed their own way up the hierarchy and so are presumed to know what they're doing. So long as you're doing that, you're a good employee.

What you do with the rest of your time is up to you. Certainly don't start working on side projects or screwing around, but you can do stuff like investigate future profit centers for the company, catch up on industry gossip, take people in your company and other companies for lunch, (networking) do personal / life stuff like taking your kid to the doctor.

All of these things are things that help the company in a roundabout way and may be overlooked by someone who doesn't properly understand what managers do.

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#139

Post by flagZ »

Interesting thread, and I feel it applies to me too... I just recently left my role as a VP Engineering in a 20 people startup. I think there is some disparity here as I am UK based and titles here are a bit different...

When I started, there were already a few people working on it, but because of an office move, nobody stayed. In a way, I am engineer #1, just with some code to maintain already. I had experience as a lead engineer already, but my job here was much tougher, I had to change my role every 6 months, from only coding to only devops, hiring, managing, doing all tech strategy choices, doing resource allocation, doing management meetings, etc...

I was eager to improve as a manager, but I still loved coding. It was very hard to hear that the company was hiring a CTO and leave me no authority. Now that person is full-time.

I tried to be very clear about it, I am aware of my strengths and weaknesses. I also fully understand that a founder needs to think about what's best for the business and not just people's carreers. I also made it clear I was there to learn, but the reality is that I never felt I was given a chance.

I stayed there a few months to get some learning from the new CTO, vest some more options and then I left. I left because the situation was toxic for me, with a mixture of resentment and miscommunication from their side. I personally think there's not much you can do in those cases... just start again.

Now onto the next adventure...

Re: Ask HN: What's left for early startup engineers as the company grows?

#140

Post by cdnsteve »

Here are my thoughts with limited knowledge of your situation.

As employee #2, you are a technical co-founder, period. The problems you have outlined will not be solved be staying at the current company. It's apparent that the owner has chosen to keep you as 'just a dev', even though your contributions are outmatched and significant. It seems opportunity to seize more than what you could have has unfortunately passed you by.

From what you're describing in your post, it seems you're showing regret. Other people have been hired for these positions, even though you built it.

The thing is about being an early employee is that it's a blessing and a curse. Most people don't realize this but the thing is the feeling you get for being the guy that put this company where it's at today is unmatched.

The problem is that once it's built, you go into maintenance mode and it turns into a corporate machine. Everything you enjoyed and discovered during the process is now going through "procedures" and "process". The freedoms gone, other people are here now and they start getting the ears of the owner instead of you.

You feel like you own this company, you should, you built it and partied with the owner for years (guessing here). The biggest regret at this point is that you probably don't own enough (equity) or you were never made co-owner.

You have a choice, stay and give your last effort to be in the position you earned. Or leave, full well knowing that you will likely not be #2 at a successful startup again. We all know that startups getting successful is about the same as winning in the lotto. However, you could be the guy you are describing in your post, the VP of Engineering that gets hired for a startup that is starting to grow...

In either case I wish you the best of luck and as another dev can appreciate the weight of your decision.

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