Ask HN: What happens to older developers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#131

Post by NegativeK » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:42 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #105

jhspaybar wrote: post #6

I honestly don't understand this, I'm sure there is ageism, but when I'm reading resumes and interviewing I love the more experienced developers! The few times I've seen a solid 10 years experience résumé followed up by a solid phone screen it has been a feeding frenzy. So much so that my company usually can't even move fast enough to get an offer in the ring :( On the other hand, it's really obvious when someone has…

Sure, but how would you feel about 30 years experience? Because at that point, somebody who started just out of college has another 10 years to go before retirement.

My experience is limited, but I don't see many companies aiming for employee retention on the order of ten years.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#132

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

It gets harder. You can continue to be an engineer, but it takes longer to find a job. (I've seen lots of openings for "senior software engineer", by which they mean "5 to 7 years experience". Great. I've got 25 years. So, you don't want me, even if you call it "senior".)

But there are some places that want more experience. My current job wanted someone to come in, take the central piece of a new embedded system, and not have to take time on a learning curve. They didn't have any problem seeing the value in 25 years of experience.

Does salary plateau? More or less. Salary growth tapers off after about 10 years experience, or so it seems to me. It still grows some, though.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#133

Post by chadcf » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:44 PM UTC

leobelle wrote: post #128

bwanab wrote: post #106

I'm 60+. I've been coding my whole career and I'm still coding. Never hit a plateau in pay, but nonetheless, I've found the best way to ratchet up is to change jobs which has been sad, but true - I've left some pretty decent jobs because somebody else was willing to pay more. This has been true in every decade of my career. There's been a constant push towards management that I've always resisted. People I've known w…

My favorite reply so far. I'm 37 and am starting to worry. I haven't run into any issues yet. I have noticed though that experience become a liability. If you wrote JavaScript for IE 6, a lot of the optimizations and things one did to make sure things worked in IE 6 are no longer necessary. One should be ready to let go of things as soon as they aren't necessary anymore. Always keep learning and know why you do the t…

I've always done this naturally, some days I read a blurb about some technology I used to use and realize, huh, I used to do that all the time but haven't touched it in years.

I think one of the key things is to have a passion for learning. I've always been bored doing the same thing over and over. Learning new technologies, design patterns, architectures, skills, etc is what interest me. That also, coincidentally, is what keeps me up to date and productive.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#134

Post by shitgoose » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #18

stinos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

until someone pries my ergonomic keyboard from my cold dead hands +1 for this nice phrase :P and, out of interest: what keyboard might that be?

I was using a a 15 year old original Microsoft Natural Keyboard until recently, but PS/2 ports are getting more and more rare and PS/2 to USB adapters haven't worked reliably for me. I just bought a Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000 which is nearly as good, even though the keys feel more "mushy" than I would like.

Yea, I too like the old good "click". Had to spend over $100 for Razer - the loudest keyboard ever!

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#135

Post by KentBeck » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

I'm about to turn 53. I spend most of my day coaching younger programmers at Facebook (because they're almost all younger). We pair program and talk. I work on speculative projects, some consumer-oriented, some programming tools and some infrastructure. I also research software design and the diffusion of innovation.

I took a 10 year excursion into being a guru, but I'm technical now and intend to stay that way. I love programming. I've never been a manager. I suppose that capped my pay, but I'd rather be satisfied with my work. I haven't noticed a pay drop with age, but my experience may not be typical.

The most important factor for me has been to keep coding. It gets harder. I have noticed a definite drop in my long-term memory, concentration, and general cognition, but I compensate by being better at picking important problems, being able to pattern match a large library of experiences, and not panicking. As Miracle Max said, I've seen worse.

I started learning Haskell a couple of years ago, and that has really helped expand my programming style. I still don't like it, but it's good for me. I'm also learning React and the reactive style of coding UIs. That's also a brain stretcher.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#136

Post by ap22213 » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

chengiz wrote: post #130

ap22213 wrote: post #37

I'm 38, and Software Dev. is as lucrative as ever. I've never done any 'IT work', and I've focused almost entirely on product development, over my 16 year career. As a salary, I think I have plateaued at 160K, which is good enough for me. With 'adjustments for inflation', that's usually an extra $5K increase per year. There are people who make more than me, I know. For example, a guy I work with probably makes $200K…

Where are you based if I may ask? Just to put your salary in context, because 160K is not the same everywhere!

Washington, DC metro area.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#137

Post by namelezz » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:50 PM UTC

bwanab wrote: post #106

I'm 60+. I've been coding my whole career and I'm still coding. Never hit a plateau in pay, but nonetheless, I've found the best way to ratchet up is to change jobs which has been sad, but true - I've left some pretty decent jobs because somebody else was willing to pay more. This has been true in every decade of my career. There's been a constant push towards management that I've always resisted. People I've known w…

I am glad to hear that generalists are as valued as specialists. At my company, it's the other way around.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#138

Post by asimeqi » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

seunosewa wrote: post #107

asimeqi wrote: post #90

Few weeks ago I got an email by a person who wrote a famous piece of software in 1971. He was given some software I had written and was asking me questions because he intended to make a few additions. My software was written in C#. I don't know what he used in 1971 but most probably it wasn't C. I have to admit that his questions made my day (or week). I learned that he is over 70 years old and programs every day. I…

Can you tell us his name, please?

Would love to, but I think I would look like I am namedropping. Also I probably would need his permission to mention his name.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#139

Post by lstamour » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:53 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #34

coldcode wrote: post #10

I'm almost 57 and still write real code that people use and employers make money from. The trick is to continuously learn new stuff. My whole career has always been spent at the leading edge of whatever was most important at the time. Sure, people sometimes don't want to interview you because they assume you are old and pointless, but that's usually when they don't even read your resume, blog, linked in or whatever y…

There's something to be told about learning stuff that matters . Data-structures, algorithms, statistics, machine learning, math in general doesn't change and will be as relevant 30 years from now as it was 30 years ago. POSIX doesn't change either. Learning for learning's sake is actually pointless and can do more harm than good if done tastelessly. The best kind of learning happens either when something is cool and…

> Google's Protobuf won't survive either, because simple text-based protocols always win

I expect Protobuf, Thrift (fbthrift) and Avro to be around for quite some time. Once you know what they're good for, everyone likes binary formats that can be easily shared across multiple languages via code gen. You can turn every binary format into text-based for debugging purposes using standard commands. Heck, even Apple has binary plists. It's natural that a format eventually gains (or is based on) binary alongside text -- for those times when binary is simply faster. Now, if it's just transmission speed, you can convert text to binary using gzip.

Frankly, the key to success for protobuf or thrift as independent projects is how much adoption you see outside of the companies.

Oh and I'd also point to the "death of rest" in http://techblog.netflix.com/2012/07/embracing-differences-in... -- just as websites provide front-ends to a myriad of backend services, so too can API servers provide a consistent, simple front-end for devices. Not sure what to call it, since as a pattern, it doesn't require a specific protocol, and it could be considered somewhat HATEOAS, except state is easily maintained client-side these days....

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#140

Post by ap22213 » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 6:02 PM UTC

chengiz wrote: post #130

ap22213 wrote: post #37

I'm 38, and Software Dev. is as lucrative as ever. I've never done any 'IT work', and I've focused almost entirely on product development, over my 16 year career. As a salary, I think I have plateaued at 160K, which is good enough for me. With 'adjustments for inflation', that's usually an extra $5K increase per year. There are people who make more than me, I know. For example, a guy I work with probably makes $200K…

Where are you based if I may ask? Just to put your salary in context, because 160K is not the same everywhere!

Also, I'm not trying to brag by posting my salary. I just think it's really important for devs (young devs, especially) to know these data points.

I took the first interesting offer that I got, when I graduated from college. It was $43k. (You have to start somewhere!)

But, as you get more experienced you must also learn to understand the value that you provide to the companies that you work for. Too many developers get taken advantage of. Software currently rules the world; remember that. Companies make trillions of dollars (in real revenue or efficiency) on the things you create. You deserve a good pay, if your products are valuable.