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Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#131

Post by melvinroest »

namaria wrote: post #99
wolfhumble wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a great example of why using LLMs to learn is perilous. This is nonsense. These type of answers from teachers, co-students, web communities, blogs etc. are – I would assume – why people ask LLMs in the first place.

It is a problem that people who are unwilling to perform some basic research resort to 'learning' the output of LLMs. No one is entitled to answers.

"No one is entitled to answers" feels very definitive, defeating and tiring. Especially because you don't explain your own thought process.

Could you please assume a good faith discussion?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#132

Post by therealmarv »

prmph wrote: post #95
therealmarv wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I tell from personal experience: The tools matter (!) for more complex problems. Op said literally "Am I just not using the tools correctly?" and I said for the 2 of 3 tools OP tried are so new and experimental I would put them away (for now).

You're still perpetuating this myth that it is about the tools, when every interaction I've had with coding assistants and LLMs veers into the territory OP describes. To be fair, the work I am doing is pretty complex and novel. And I use a wide range of model/versions.I mostly use Claude, from 3.5 to the newest 4.0. I also use Gemini and with Copilot.

It's not a myth. I don't promise that better tools solve every problem but it can increase quality and usefulness of the output. One of the main big problems of (nearly) all AI coding tools is to get enough context of understanding which means the right files for a prompt need to be send along. Especially the bigger a project gets the more important that is. It's kinda an AI in itself just to gather the right files for the main AI prompt which is sent to the main solving AI. E.g. in aider I specify manually which files will be sent along the prompt and they are not truncated or ignored, something which can happen easily in tools like Copilot, Cursor, even in roo code behind the scenes. This leads to the result that the main AI does not see the whole picture of the project and makes wrong guesses and maybe assumptions. More details in prompts in every tool help find the AI to understand the bigger picture and the important files. It maybe even helps to describe and save the whole project and structure in a text file to describe it to the AI better along every prompt.

Roo code is smarter with this problem, Claude Code is also pretty smart with it and in aider the problem does not exist if you as a human understand the project structure and tell aider the important context files to send to the AI.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#133

Post by kordlessagain »

gyomu wrote: post #13

There are two kinds of engineers. Those who can’t stop raving about how much of a superpower LLMs are for coding, how it’s made them 100x more productive, and is unlocking things they could’ve never done before. And those who, like you, find it to be an extremely finicky process that requires extreme amount of coddling to get average results at best. The only thing I don’t understand is why people from the former gro…

“If we do not invent the future, someone else will do it for us - and it will be their future, not ours.” – Duncan D. Bruce & Dr. Geoff Crook, The Dream Café

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#134

Post by tshadley »

100% agreed with your experience, AI provides little value to one's area of expertise (10+ years or more). It's the context length -- AI needs comparable training or inference-time cycles.

But just wait for the next doubling of long task capacity (https://metr.org/blog/2025-03-19-measuring-ai-ability-to-com...). Or the doubling after that. AI will get there.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#135

Post by kordlessagain »

xiphias2 wrote: post #46

For me anything before Codex model with webui was time waster. Now with webui what's important is to constantly add tests around the code base, also if it gets stuck, go through the logs and understand why. It's more of a management role of ,,unblocking'' the LLM if it gets stuck and working with it than fitting it to my previous workflow.

I agree with this. What tools are you using with Claude?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#136

Post by kordlessagain »

prmph wrote: post #95
therealmarv wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I tell from personal experience: The tools matter (!) for more complex problems. Op said literally "Am I just not using the tools correctly?" and I said for the 2 of 3 tools OP tried are so new and experimental I would put them away (for now).

You're still perpetuating this myth that it is about the tools, when every interaction I've had with coding assistants and LLMs veers into the territory OP describes. To be fair, the work I am doing is pretty complex and novel. And I use a wide range of model/versions.I mostly use Claude, from 3.5 to the newest 4.0. I also use Gemini and with Copilot.

You are perpetuating that it isn't about the tools, but it definitely is about the tools it has to do things.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#137

Post by therealmarv »

prmph wrote: post #93
infecto wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tools do matter. The original complaint is dribble. The poster does not even know what model they used in cursor which is surprising, it’s the most important part of the process. They also compared two entirely brand new tools that are not adjacent to cursor.

Ok, that's the "you're holding it wrong" thing. When I start to stray into even moderately complex work, LLMs become pretty useless quick. Tell me your setup, and I will give a quick sample task that it will fail at. Stop the fanboyism please

I just hope you keep still trying with whatever tool you want. I see among many developers to see frustration once after some deep testing of AI coding tools and then they never look back and never try again. This means they will be stuck with soon outdated knowledge and experiences.

The LLMs advance and so does the quality. What e.g. OpenAIs o3 can do is so much better than what GPT 3.5 can do.

I'm convinced every developer who does not stay up to date with AI coding tools and know how to use them will become obsolete sooner or later.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#138

Post by s_ting765 »

sph wrote: post #118
Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find LLMs 100x more productive for greenfield work. If I want to create a React app with X amount of pages, some Redux stores, Auth, etc. then it can smash that out in minutes. I can say "now add X" and it'll do it. Generally with good results. But when it comes to maintaining existing systems, or adding more complicated features, or needing to know business domain details, a LLM is usually not that great for me. T…

> I find LLMs 100x more productive for greenfield work. Greenfield != boilerplate and basic CRUD app. I'm a consultant writing greenfield apps solo, and 90% of my time is spent away from my editor thinking, planning, designing, meeting with stakeholders. I see no benefit in using a low-IQ autocomplete tool to automate a small part of the remaining 10% of the job, the easiest and most enjoyable part in fact. Personall…

I completely agree with you that the coders who are "smitten" by LLMs are just inexperienced. I personally find that LLMs get subtle improvements in capability over time and it's usually worthwhile to check in on the progress from time to time. Even if it's just for fun.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#139

Post by [deleted] »

melvinroest wrote: post #57
namaria wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I ask ChatGPT and one of the things it said is that historically it meant "measure" This is a great example of why using LLMs to learn is perilous. This is nonsense.

Is it? I didn't bother to check as it wasn't too relevant. I wasn't stuck anymore. Worst-case it's a memnonic that is untrue. Best case: it is. For actual derivations I check the work. This is what it wrote by the way. I posted an image and asked: Why is this m m for angle mangle? ChatGPT: In geometry we often need to distinguish the angle itself (a geometric object) from the numerical size of that angle (a real-numb…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Anyone struggling to get value out of coding LLMs?

#140

Post by GenerocUsername »

gyomu wrote: post #13

There are two kinds of engineers. Those who can’t stop raving about how much of a superpower LLMs are for coding, how it’s made them 100x more productive, and is unlocking things they could’ve never done before. And those who, like you, find it to be an extremely finicky process that requires extreme amount of coddling to get average results at best. The only thing I don’t understand is why people from the former gro…

At a macro level, people from the former group might be doing better than you think.

I have gone from Senior II, to Lead Architect, to Principal Engineer in the years LLMs have been available.

It's not literally a 100x multiplier, but I have leveraged their ability to both fill in details where I lack specific knowledge, and as a first point of contact when researching a new space.

LLMs have enabled me to widen my sphere of influence by deepening my abilities at every point of my T-shaped knowledge curve.

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