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Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#131

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

danuker wrote: post #5

I'd argue that a mobile phone is not an adequate platform for coding. The touchscreen and keyboard layouts make it difficult to type needed symbols, distracting from the problem at hand. Coding requires deep thought, but phones are optimized for moving around rather than sitting in one place and thinking. As such, use cases like maps, calendars, communication and alarms get priority. The reason people buy a phone is…

Sure, but you shouldn't need to develop on the phone itself. Where's an Arduino-like IDE that I can run on Windows or Linux to develop for iPhone? Should just be able to connect a USB cable and go. Where's the Python support?

Of course smartphones are mainstream so most owners are users not potential developers.. unlike the late 70s/early 80's computer scene which grew out of the hobby electronics scene where the early users were much more technical. My first computer came as a kit - bag of components and a motherboard - had to get out the soldering iron to build it.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#132

Post by rocket_surgeron »

pdntspa wrote: post #72

Because smartphones are designed to keep you stupid. Computer literacy means you are able to poke holes in their shitty abstractions. The industry does not want you programming or creating, the industry wants you to be consuming. Preferably with your credit card.

> The industry does not want you programming or creating, the industry wants you to be consuming

For this to be true, logically the tools to create smartphone programs would be fiercely protected and only available to the chosen few and smartphone OS developers would never in a million years promote learning how to program on their devices.

From my end it looks like the opposite of all of that is happening.

I went to a school in "THE GOLDEN AGE" of 8-bit micros and I was the only one out of 1,100 who used the single room of Apple IIs to type in BASIC programs.

My daughters went to a school that has classes on programming, including Android development.

Turbo Pascal used to be so expensive I couldn't afford it.

Android studio is $0.00 and the (free) resources for development that apple and google openly distribute make many of my college classes look pathetic.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#133

Post by great_psy »

amelius wrote: post #113
nindalf wrote: post #85

The answer is obvious - most people don’t want to do this. They want to text or call a friend, look up the weather or sports, stream some entertainment or read the news. They’re experts in their own domains and don’t have the time or inclination to learn programming. There’s some heavy condescension in this thread, claiming that not programming “keeps people stupid”. As if creating can only happen in an IDE and not i…

> The answer is obvious - most people don’t want to do this. There are still millions of people who want to do this. The question is more: why do phone companies actively discourage it?

Have you played around with the shortcuts app on the iPhone ? It is pretty powerful for something that is highly constrained to a few select operations.

It’s not full out programming but it is a good entry way once you are done with scratch.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#134

Post by gabereiser »

asddubs wrote: post #105
gabereiser wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not saying they don't exist, but to penetrate that 1% market share to be relevant they have not. I did call out things like raspi and such as still viable for tinkering but not the same way that I was introduced to computers with the Apple II and later the 386/486DX revolution. Around Pentium II things got anti-tinker and ever since 2007 it's been pretty much a consumer-only market. Walled gardens and locked down OS'…

at least on x86 you're still able to install whatever operating system you want, even if only for legacy reasons

New motherboards have safe boot enabled and you can’t disable it in UEFI. So no, you can’t.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#135

Post by throwaway4aday »

nindalf wrote: post #85

The answer is obvious - most people don’t want to do this. They want to text or call a friend, look up the weather or sports, stream some entertainment or read the news. They’re experts in their own domains and don’t have the time or inclination to learn programming. There’s some heavy condescension in this thread, claiming that not programming “keeps people stupid”. As if creating can only happen in an IDE and not i…

I think your obvious answer is wrong. The fact is that modern smartphones are walled gardens with very large, powerful gatekeepers who want to protect their duopoly. The original impetus behind locking down the operating systems on smartphones was security but it evolved into a perfect way to ensure control over their market. There are no generic PC clones in the cellphone market, only small hobbyist or niche products that barely work. A+G encourage programming for their OSs only in so far as the output of such an activity can be sold on their app stores where they can take their cut and still retain absolute control over what gets installed.

In regards to plugins, someone has to write them. Even if the people writing those plugins use LLM tools to assist them they still need to know how to put software together and how to manage all of the services that those APIs talk to and how to scale their infrastructure along with user growth.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#136

Post by [deleted] »

masklinn wrote: post #123
diego_moita wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more than obvious if you look at the broad picture: computers on the 80s were sold to a few million people, most of them with, at least, high school degree and math inclinations (a.k.a. "nerds"). Smartphones, o.t.o.h. are sold to billions of people. The scale is just immense and is a completely different audience.

An other component is that computers in the 80s largely did not have the power to hide their workings from users. In fact the cheaper ones required basic knowledge of operations in order to just use otherwise they were glorified heaters.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#137

Post by randcraw »

Early PCs lacked two things that made smartphones a whole new ballgame: a network, and software. When the Altair 8800, IBM PC, Apple II, Commodore PET, and Tandy TRS-80 shipped (1975-1980), there was no way to communicate with other people, nor was there much software (nor was there convenient storage for it — cassette tapes and floppies were severely limiting and a major pain to use). If the machine didn't have a Basic interpreter, it was neither useful (little software), nor engaging to the hobbiest (no way to explore the machine).

By the time smartphones shipped, communication with others and availability of vast repos of apps were almost unlimited. Only a tiny fraction of owners ever thought about coding up their own apps or exploring the infrastructure of the device.

And of course the makers of smartphone OSes had no intention of opening up their sealed gardens so users could compete with their near-total control of the user experience — a lesson that Microsoft's domination of the PC's OS taught to all budding monopolists.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#138

Post by never_inline »

The "why" aside, if you have an android, check out Termux.

That's a UNIX-ish shell environment.

I wish there was a way to use Android APIs from a scripting environment in Android phone. I tried a bit during last semester, but didn't get anywhere due to lack of time. What I wrote was a beanshell environment which lets you evaluate statements like REPL. But since Android and Java bytecode is different, it can't even pass lambdas properly.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#139

Post by wruza »

dehrmann wrote: post #127
nindalf wrote: post #85

The answer is obvious - most people don’t want to do this. They want to text or call a friend, look up the weather or sports, stream some entertainment or read the news. They’re experts in their own domains and don’t have the time or inclination to learn programming. There’s some heavy condescension in this thread, claiming that not programming “keeps people stupid”. As if creating can only happen in an IDE and not i…

I work in tech as a software engineer and I (mostly) don't want to do this. I want my phone to work out of the box. The other thing I'd add is that even when I want to write a mobile app, doing it on the device itself would be a nightmare. Composing emails is already hard enough.

I (mostly) don't want to do this. I want my phone to work out of the box.

Software working out of the box and programming aren’t mutually exclusive.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't smartphones encourage programming like early 80s computers?

#140

Post by mrwh »

Lots of interesting replies here. I'd question the premise though. At least where I grew up, programming was a niche interest. Plenty of people I knew had Amigas and Atari STs; very few had any interest in programming them. It wouldn't surprise me that just as a small proportion of people back then did learn to write their own programs (or tried to), a similar proportion today are delving into XCode and Android Studio - and Unity and all the rest, and doing so for free, with a wealth of tutorials.
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