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Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#131

Post by MaxPengwing »

My main grief is that recruiters in tech has no clue what they are writing in the job listing.

They also tend to reach out to you over linkedin and refuse to give you the actual job description unless you give them your email/phone-number and CV, which is just infuriatingly arrogant.

My hope is that tech job listings stop listing stuff like Must have Experience with XXX and YYY application/framework and instead start listing skills needed to be success full in the role. Tech becomes outdated so incredibly fast and we're allways learning in our jobs that it's kinda futile to list tech instead of skills.

Sure Need to know Python, C#, Assembler, that is a skill, but applications and frameworks are something that you can learn, and besides each company use them slightly different so you'd need internal training anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#132

Post by 2rsf »

MaxPengwing wrote: post #131

My main grief is that recruiters in tech has no clue what they are writing in the job listing. They also tend to reach out to you over linkedin and refuse to give you the actual job description unless you give them your email/phone-number and CV, which is just infuriatingly arrogant. My hope is that tech job listings stop listing stuff like Must have Experience with XXX and YYY application/framework and instead start…

From experience hiring managers, and not just recruiters, tend to publish ads without understanding the full content.

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#133

Post by diceduckmonk »

roxgib wrote: post #97
logicalmonster wrote: post #90

> Employers are overwhelmed with large numbers of applicants, most of whom don't meet the requested minimum requirements. 1) I wonder if the problem of being overwhelmed by applicants can be solved in the same way that dating sites work, because they somewhat have a similar issue. Perhaps restrict job seekers from applying to more than X jobs per day or week, like some dating sites do. At the least, this ensures that…

Your second point is important, but when you have recruiters/HR as the front line of hiring it completely breaks down because they haven't got a clue whether an applicant's skills are transferable or not. And they cop a lot of flack for this from developers but honestly I'm not sure it's possible for someone who doesn't even code for a living to learn how different technologies are and aren't compatible, skills-wise.…

> honestly I'm not sure it's possible for someone who doesn't even code for a living to learn how different technologies are and aren't compatible, skills-wise

You don’t have to be the best sports player to be a great sports coach. You don’t have to be the best programmer to be a great engineering manager. The problem is that companies have not decided it cost effective to pay more for recruiters that know how to code or even have a CS degree.

This said, I think AI, ChatGPT/LLMs, and probabilistic models can make inferences about skill transferability. Interacting with ChatGPT could effectively become a fizzbuzz programming interview. Potentially, we can have the AI randomly remove a line of code from otherwise correct code, and interacts with the interviewee to debug what’s wrong with the code.

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#134

Post by [deleted] »

pkrotich wrote: post #92

It's just like dating - have you tried it lately? Dating Apps has made the issue even worse - so "better" hiring platform is not a viable solution either. The quickest hires IMHO are via referrals - but this is sort like arranged marriages/dates and it comes with it's own set of issues (nepotism etc). I think companies need to have dedicated HR / Recruiters (or hire headhunters) to cut down on such frustrations. But…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#135

Post by jhoelzel »

This is unsolvable.

As an human you are probably applicable to a multitude of jobs in all different kinds of industries and therefore the sheer process of going through the list to find "the one" is going to prove very difficult.

Its not that hiring is inhuman, but unnecessary moats are. Those are there in turn because a large number of people are applying to those same jobs. Combine that with the fact of remote working, you pretty quickly realize that you will get resource management problems no matter what you do.

Finally, its also that most people hiring have no actual clue as to whom they would like to hire for the position to begin with. Just as all recruiters don't really understand the position they are hiring for.

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#136

Post by lapcat »

glass3 wrote: post #124
lapcat wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The members can rate each other in a friendly environment > Employers at first communicate with the guild and only have to evaluate 5-10 candidates. Yeah, no. It's not friendly when there's an obvious hierarchy and competition for jobs involving large amounts of money. And who decides the criteria? How are other developers even supposed to "rate" you if they haven't worked with you? Putting all software engineering…

It doesn't have to be one central guild. There can be a competition of guilds, each with their own criteria. Guilds already exit as networks of friends who recommend each other. Hiring is only dehumanizing for those who are not part of an informal network. With guilds, there could be accessible knowledge to everybody on how to be or become a good professional. The fact that programmers haven't already organized thems…

> It doesn't have to be one central guild. There can be a competition of guilds, each with their own criteria.

But that totally undermines the central premise:

> Employers at first communicate with the guild and only have to evaluate 5-10 candidates.

For employers, there's no reason or advantage to deal with the guilds rather than directly with job candidates when there are a bunch of competing guilds with their own criteria.

And if guilds aren't providing/gatekeeping access to employers, then why would job candidates join them?

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#138

Post by chumbly72 »

The cause of most issues with hiring today is because of technology. Back in the good old days, you'd turn to something like the newspaper or a corkboard with job postings, or you'd work with your school's career services to find a job. Then you'd go to the place in person, call them on the phone, or send your resume through the mail. Then at the end of an interview or two, they'd tell you on the spot if you were hired. It was a good and honest way with natural barriers of entry to do hiring.

So to answer your question, OP, we can fix it by going back to using want ads in the paper and physical correspondence for the entire process.

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#139

Post by noirbot »

loa_in_ wrote: post #123
noirbot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if it's a bad fit, it's still tied to you. Your team or some other team is now blaming you for their bad hire and you don't get the money.

Assuming that company wants best hires they are glad to give a go to anyone in the possible candidate pool sooner or later, and knowing anyone in same line of work (surely) is a positive bias to viability so they should thank you. What makes you feel like it's about blame?

Blame is maybe a too-strong word in some cases, but if someone gets hired onto my team and is a bit of a dud for whatever reason, and I know someone influential on another team referred them, it starts to feel more like nepotism than simply "using a referral network".

Especially at a larger company where the hiring process can be a little obscured from the actual team. Where not every, or even most engineers on a team get to meet a new engineer before they're hired.

Re: Ask HN: Why is hiring so dehumanized, and what can be done?

#140

Post by warrenm »

ghaff wrote: post #91
warrenm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"who" vs "what" you know has always been the "right answer" :)

I know you'll find people who say they've always just gone through recruiters or applying online, but beyond starting out it certainly hasn't been my experience--including in difficult periods like 2001. I'm sure I've been lucky but it's also resulted in the right jobs through the right people.

Yeah - in 25 years, I've gotten precisely one job through a "blind" application ... when I worked at Hertz as a car cleaner :)

Every single other job has come via connection

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